Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
|
|
Jun 10, 2017 22:26:24 GMT
|
So, some of you will know about my latest purchase of a V70 - aka the Blue Whale. After covering 1500 uneventful miles over the past week, I am now looking to make a few drivability mods. Aaaaaannnndd this is where it sort of goes wrong... I have zero experiance with diesel, like none. So what drivability issues am I wanting to address? Performance and fuel consumption in a nut shell. I hear good things about the VAG 2.5 but I am not feeling it. To be frank it is a bit gutless and not that good on juice. So a little research has got me even more confused. Piggy back modules, pump timing and EGR deletes. Grrr.... It doesn't smoke under acceleration or rattle undually. Over the 1500 miles it has averaged 38.4 of mixed motorway and town driving. Seems to be happier at 85 than 70 and needs a lot of throttle to maintain speed on motorway hills. So. Question is what would you VAG experts recommend as a starting point? Or, before that, what should I be checking to,make sure it is within tolerance? I actually really enjoy driving the car, it is comfortable and if I can get the above sorted will fit my requirement for a depreciation free high mileage motorway muncher. Over to you guys, please educate me. P.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 10, 2017 23:21:57 GMT
|
When I had it - I kinda found the same... I think a bit part of it, is that engine teamed with an auto box. When I was 17 a mates dad had a brand new one (only a manual) and it absolutely flew!! With this one, I found you really had to give it a good shove to get it moving (I also left it in 'sport' mode all the time to make it hang onto the gears for longer. Eco mode was awful) As for fuel economy: also sounds about right..in fact sounds better than I used to average (32-33ish). Every for sale advert I read said 40+ ...haha, yeah, right! I find the same thing with my Passat (1.9tdi auto). I get about 34-36 in reality...
...oh yeah and egr was already blanked (unless it was since removed!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
no idea if you can use vagcom on the volvo but you can check and adjust injection quantities on the ecu with it.
basic pump timing can be quite a way off and it still run, you have two belts there too.
maf faults and vacuum leaks can play havoc, with a servo or vac pump fault you wont get boost from the vacuum actuated vnt turbo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
No - it's too old for vagcom/although it physically looks like an odb2 port, it wasn't until 99 that it went full odb2. You'll have to use vcds
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
thought that was the same stuff! only been a casual observer as mates have been fiddling on their vw's mind
|
|
|
|
Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
|
|
|
Thanks for the confirmation on the egr blanking sarkie83 from memory was it just a plate on the head? If so looks like it is still there so one less thing to worry about! Had a good poke around under the bonnet and noticed that this has two,pipes that aren't connected to anything! Well one of them obviously goes to the EGR - is this necessary anymore - but where th either goes, who knows? Could be a problem! Also, a bit more investigation lead me to this. www.tuning-diesels.co.uk/synergy-4-vp/Which seems to have very good reviews, any input from the crowd? I am not looking for race car performance, just something that is safe to drive as I am very happy with my purchase but, as it's intended purpose is depreciation free transportation to the various universities of the U.K., it needs to be able to get out of its own way. And return some of this fabled mileage! All input appreciated. P. Quick edit. The reason why I am looking into this is because the crowd seems to think that these go quite well. If indeed this is what they are all like then I will recalibrate my internal " goes quite well" meter and reclassify my 1.25 Fiesta as a Super Car......
|
|
Last Edit: Jun 11, 2017 8:54:51 GMT by Paul Y
|
|
vitesseefi
South West
Posts: 2,243
Member is Online
|
|
|
Presume you are talking about the D5252T I5 Audi designed engine? If so it's exactly the same as the Audi AEL as used in the C4 A6.
At 140 bhp, not especially powerful by today's standards but they are strong horses and it should pull hard from 2000 - 3500 rpm. My A6, which passed 300k last Wednesday averaged > 50mpg on the 380 mile run I did that day. The A6, with 6 speed box and slightly better aerodynamics are sightly more economical that the Volvo, but not a big margin.
Things to check: Basic servicing, air filter, fuel filter, clean oil. Cam belt history - these engines are extremely tough, broken cam belts and no oil changes is about the only thing that kills them.
What makes them slow/thirsty? - Incorrect pump timing. Advanced means they start well but less good on fuel, less poke and clattery, especially when cold. retarded makes them hard to start cold, helps economy but makes them slow if very retarded. You need access to Vagcom/VCDS to do this and the freeware versions don't have the pumping function enabled unfortunately. Check out the Volvo/Audi forums as you may well find someone locally who will help with this. - Blocked CAT. - Boost leaks - Split pipe to the MAP sensor (turbo makes boost but the ECU does not see it so does not fuel enough) - Generally grubby fuel system/injectors. Mine loves Toolstation diesel injector cleaner! Injector nozzles are typically long-lasting changed mine at 280k. - Possible, though reasonably unusual for the inlet tract to get really coked up due to the EGR. Dismantling and manual cleaning is the only real option. - Sticking brakes.....
Worth sorting as it should go well!
Nick
|
|
1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
|
|
Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
|
|
Jun 11, 2017 10:00:14 GMT
|
Thanks Nick, Further investigation leads me to believe that an auto makes things considerably worse than the manual.... Servicing the whale next week and sending it out to have the Cam belt replaced, looks like it was done around 50k miles ago from the wad of receipts but for worry free motoring going to get it done. Reattached the pipes from the Pierburg sensor and going to see what difference that makes. P.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2017 11:39:16 GMT
|
I think that's just it - on the autos, the mileage claims are just a myth...I NEVER saw anything close to 50. Just managed 40 once when I was stuck in a 50mph stretch of roadworks!
Same with performance...it was ok, but you really had to shove it, it once up to speed it would sit there all day. It's like all the people that buy engines, carbs, etc... off 'some old guy for £20' ...internet Lies...all of it...the actually spent 100's/1000's like the rest of us ;-)
Haha i remember driving a 1.25 fiesta when it was new and it WAS a super car compared to the 1.1 I'd been driving before that ;-)
EGR was a blank (think I might even have put in those service notes I sent you when it was done..) The cambelt was done when I had it at a local Volvo independent as I read about the pump timing. When I sold it as spares it was because the water pump had broken, so it must have been done again since that.
|
|
|
|
Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
|
|
Jun 11, 2017 15:04:25 GMT
|
Well a small victory - only time will tell! Reattached the vacuum lines from the Pierburg sensor and then found out why they were not attached. Looks like the top engine mount has perrished and rocks backwards pulling the pipes out of the inlet pipe. Quick trip to my friendly motorfactor and £3 later I have extended the pipes. Boom. New top mount ordered but there is enough slack in there for testing purposes. Hard to tell on a short tet drive but seems to pull a bit harder now in the midrange and, surprisingly the box now kicks down in e mode, something that it would not do before. Strange. Anyway, another 1000 miles to do this week so let's see if it has made a difference to the mileage and long distance drivability. Thanks for all the input. P.
|
|
|
|
|
Stu
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,913
|
|
Jun 23, 2017 16:22:58 GMT
|
Hi, Have a look on the 850/early V70 section on the volvo forum here: www.volvoforums.org.uk/index.phpThere is a guy on there, Martin I think, who knows these very well and will give you some advice. For reference, I have the 88bhp non intercooled 2.5TDI in my VW T4 Caravelle with a mild remap and it certainly shifts along pretty well and never returns less that 35mpg so should give good performance and economy in a car. Stu
|
|
'89 BMW E30 325i Sport, '04 MINI Cooper S, '09 Volvo V70 D5
|
|
Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
|
|
Jun 25, 2017 13:51:41 GMT
|
Thanks Stu, In contact with Martin as he has looked over the car previously. Looking into a few additions to get rid of the big torque hole and add a few mpg. What I have done so far has got me into the 40's over 4000 miles which I think is about all I am going to get. Biggest increase came from turning the air con off! Regards, P.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I've got a 2.5 manual V70 and it's doing 48-52mpg as checked by brimming the tank and using an app on my phone. That's been consistent over the 18 months I've owned it so the adverts stating 40+mpg aren't necessarily lying. I always run with my aircon switched on too.
Forget about the fact it's a diesel and check the usual stuff - tyre pressures, tracking, remove anything off the roofrack, new air filter, make sure brakes aren't binding.
|
|
|
|
vitesseefi
South West
Posts: 2,243
Member is Online
|
|
Jun 26, 2017 17:51:23 GMT
|
I reckon the auto-box is the biggest issue - terrible thieves of power and economy..........
Nick
|
|
1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
|
|
ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
|
|
Jun 26, 2017 18:39:12 GMT
|
I reckon the auto-box is the biggest issue - terrible thieves of power and economy.......... Nick While I agree I think there is a bigger issue. Rose tinted glasses. People have often said to me "oh, they show a modern car a thing or two" when talking about old cars. I refer to Pug 306 DTurbos, the 205 STDT, and the most heard one, the Triumph Dolomite Sprint. Compared to something like a 1.3 Ka or a 1.0 12v Corsa or your Fiestas/Novas of the day even in XR2 format, yes they are faster ; I still remember going in a 205 STDT with a GTi shell and running gear. It felt like it absolutely flew! But compared to modern stuff? Not a chance. My Alfa 147 JTD even with 115BHP when I owned it would have shown the above a clean pair of heels to the ligher 205 and the 306 ; coming from a GTi-6 (which people felt the dervs were almost as quick) and a friend's Mondeo ST24 the 306 derv felt slow ; my friend thought the same thing and couldn't get the fuss about them. The Dolly Sprint slaying a 106 GTi or a 306 GTi-6? No chance, unless the driver behind the Franchies were either stoned or asleep ; I drove two FWIW and yes mine did have full use of the throttle cable and refreshed carb and ignition etc. The MPG of the Pug was OK ; around 43MPG, but again not all that great when you think about it. Looking back, my dad's E36 325TDS was OK in the day, but again the Alfa above or most common rail modern euroboxes would leave it almost standing now. The MPG of that was not amazing however ; my 323i was not much worse! Don't get me wrong I don't hate them. I loved my Dolly Sprint and my 306 Derv but I'm aware that really speaking they're not really road burners. If the OP is used to modern common rail power I doubt many old dervs will be able to get past that. Speaking of which, what cars do you have and have owned before?
|
|
Last Edit: Jun 26, 2017 18:41:39 GMT by ChasR
|
|
|
|
Jun 26, 2017 18:57:50 GMT
|
While I agree I think there is a bigger issue. Rose tinted glasses. So true - I don't listen to forum mpg claims - they never match what actually get
|
|
|
|
vitesseefi
South West
Posts: 2,243
Member is Online
|
|
Jun 26, 2017 22:12:16 GMT
|
While I certainly wouldn't argue on the performance front, I'm going to argue a bit on the mpg front.
I've owned my A6 TDI, whose AEL engine is identical for practical purposed to the OPs D5252T, for 14 years (!) and driven it almost 200k. I've put alot of fuel in it. I've watched the MPG indicator alot too. It lies, but not that much. I also calculate it properly fairly frequently.
It's a 1,650 kg estate car and it genuinely averages 50 mpg in the summer months and perhaps 47 in the winter. I have seen it do a carefully checked 56.5 mpg over 1,300 miles and an astonishing 62.4 mpg over 443 miles. It's original keeper (my former boss) has had 5 company cars since, 2 of them later A6 2.5 TDIs with the V6, all diesel. None matches this one in real world mpg and he can't quite believe that this car, which he ragged without mercy for it's first 100k, is still soldiering on at 300k. The ultimate joke was another colleague with a Focus Econetic (sp?) which was meant to do 65 mpg and actually did low to mid 40s when properly calculated. It was slower too. And broke down often.
The difference is, the modern diesels are crippled with emissions gear. We don't call mine the "soot monster" for nothing...... it's probably no worse on NOx emissions though.....
Nick
Nick
|
|
1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
|
|
ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
|
|
Jun 26, 2017 22:30:24 GMT
|
Without this getting off topic are you fairy footed Nick? I'll be honest but my old man could get 42MPG at best from the 325TDS. Most of the time it was the mid 30s. But TBH MPG is a strange old thing. I've had 1.3 Ka from new using no oil and proven to make book dyno figures used more fuel than the Clio 172 I had. I've also had an E39 520i 2.2 be as frugal as my E46 M3. That last bit was not a joke.
|
|
|
|
vitesseefi
South West
Posts: 2,243
Member is Online
|
|
Jun 27, 2017 12:26:04 GMT
|
Without this getting off topic are you fairy footed Nick? I can be quite light footed at times...... can even get 30 mpg from a 4.2 A8, though that takes serious effort so is a rare event. The other probably relevant point is I don't do much true "town" driving and do a fair amount of longish runs. Don't have to cane the A6 (or A8) to make decent progress. Nick
|
|
1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
|
|
Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
|
|
Jun 27, 2017 21:16:31 GMT
|
Please feel free to go as off topic as you see fit! ChasR As for previous cars, well lots! At the height of the madness I had 36 cars...oh dear.... Used to old and new, my 500hp Chevy ran really low 12's at 122mph - 300mile round trip to Shakey and over 10 runs down the strip returned 19mpg. Not sure what that is supposed to prove other than I can drive fairly economically, just choose not to most of the time.... Look, The Whale is a £650 depreciation free motorway machine. My issue is that it is a bit lethargic and therefore a little dangerous when those that can't drive perform the unexpected and it is required to accelerate to safety. I am 'sort' of satisfied with the mileage now, a 570 round trip to Wales returned a real world 42mpg. Factor in that I am not paying £320 per month for my wifes dire Kuga which got about the same mileage and I am golden. My feeling is, as other have pointed out, that the auto is the root of the problem. Can I change it to a manual? Yes. Am I going too? No. But do I want too...mmmm.... I think the experiance is teaching me that I am all about that 3 pedal life (as I understand the cool kids would say). Anyway, it would appear that I have another problem... Please see my other post about overheating! P.
|
|
|
|
|