fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Ok so... Lots of people are scared of vehicle electrics. But you don't need to be! They aren't magic, they follow the same physical principles as the mechanical stuff you are all adept at doing.
So, a thread about them. Questions, how to, that sort of stuff. This is a placeholder while I sort out what to write and what to omit, but in the meantime anyone with specific concerns, questions, or ideas about what sort of content you'd like, fire away on here!
To follow:
How to inspect and test
How to rewire
What is acceptable and what isn't
Just how in the hell do electrics work?
Best practice fault finding techniques
6v and 12v systems - how to make one work with the other
Useful links, contacts, products and tips
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heathrobinson
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Broken everything
Posts: 848
Club RR Member Number: 111
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I reckon a "Good practice" kinda guide bit would be useful. How to choose the right gauge of wire, how to connect things properly, insulate them etc would be useful. I've seen some shocking things of late, mostly in the dash of my winnibago (ringlock fencing and mains cable for a start...), and although it's probably not been done by someone interested enough to be a member of a forum like this, I can't see it hurting to lay out some of the basics briefly. Maybe that's sort of covered by or an addendum to "what's acceptable etc."
I'm looking forward to this either way, there's always more to learn.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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RIGHTY-HO! Lets start with some electronics theory upside yo' head. I am only touching on the very very basics here to give a good impression of how electricity works in your car. Electricity flows, like water. It follows the same physical principles as everything else. It wants to take the path of least resistance to get back to earth. Think of it as a pressured system (like central heating). It will flow from high pressure to low, always trying to equalise. Electricity flow is electrons moving around. They move pretty slowly, actually. But one electron pushes on the next, which pushes the next, etc. Like a scaffold tube full of pingpong balls. With that in mind, think of your car electrical system. The electricity is desperate to get from the positive terminal of your battery to the negative (a slight inaccuracy, it ACTUALLY flows from the negative to the positive, but this little "fib" of convention helps us understand and clarify things much more easily). A voltage is a potential, your car electrical system works at a potential of 12-14 volts. The negative terminal at your battery is at o volts. Note: That means that it is still a potential, it's just a potential of 0, it STILL counts as a voltage, this is important later. Your battery is a big storage tank, full of electrons rammed in one side that want to escape to the other. The alternator rams more electrons in there, until it cant hold any more. Your battery has a capacity, say 60ah (amp hours), 90, whatever. Bigger battery, more amp hours, more electrons in there (again, this is not strictly true, but it will do for now). When the electrons flow through something, they do something. Either give off light, heat, noise, whatever. Keep that in mind as you work on your car. Electricity isn't magic. It's not something to be feared. It's just a tank of stored energy with a bunch of pipes coming off it. No different to your oil system, cooling system, fuel system... So. Knowing that, we can come up with some safety tips: SAFETY! 1) You wouldn't work on your engine while it was running unless you absolutely positively had to. So, lets not go poking around in the electrics while the battery is connected unless we absolutely have to. If you need to do something, disconnect the battery first. Do this by taking off the GROUND terminal of your battery (if your car is positive earth, take of the positive terminal. If it's negative earth, take off the negative terminal. Typically, the earth will be the bug fat cable that is more like a braided strap than an insulated cable). 2) When you have to work live, be very very careful. Especially around your battery. Shorting out the live terminal of your battery to the chassis of the car will make a VERY big bang. Use insulated tools, have a fire extinguisher close to hand if you can, and use all your senses (touch, smell, taste, hearing and sight). If something smells acrid, gets hot, crackles or pops or bangs or flashes, then something is wrong. Your battery, when shorted, may also boil. This will result in, at best, a pressure explosion of battery acid all over the place. At worst, your battery will give off hydrogen which really DOES go kaboom when there's a spark. Since you are playing with electric, there's going to be sparks. Best make sure you don't have any fuel leaks too while you are thinking about it 3) It's only 12v, but that does not mean it is not dangerous. Voltage is only half of the story, you need to think about amps too. Think of voltage as the pressure, and amps as the flow. You have a low pressure, VERY high flow system in your car. The biggest fuse you will find in your household appliances is 13A, your breakers are usually 30A. Your car electrical system can push hundreds if it has to. That creates a LOT of heat. And you don't have any breakers or RCDs in there to save you. Believe me, you CAN get hurt, so don't be blase about it. There are many more safety tips, but we'll leave it there for now.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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So, best practice, tip number one...
How to choose the correct gauge of wire?
This one isn't as straight forward as it sounds. You have, say, a light. The light says it is 60 watts. Great. So, lets go and buy some 60 watt wire. Oh, wait, it's in amps...
Here we do a bit of Ohms law. Power = Current x Voltage
So, 60 watts... And the car electrical system we will say is 12v (there's a reason for aiming low here - explain later). We can move the formula around to Current = Power divided by Voltage, so 60 divided by 12, so 5! Five amps!
Right... Off we go to buy some 5A cable... Right? No. Yes that cable will work fine all day long, probably for years and years. But when some birk accidentally cuts the insulation and shorts the cable out, or a fault develops in the light, things change. Now its carrying more than 5amps. But it's ok, your fuse will blow... Except, the circuit will likely be coming from a fuse that feeds several things. The fuse could be 10, 15, 20 amps, maybe more. The cable you have is not good enough to carry that, and this is where vehicle fires often start. A dead short will blow that fuse in milliseconds, sure. But an earth fault or something, that could mean the cable ends up with 15 amps on it and not blow the fuse, and this is what causes the problems.
So, you cable MUST BE rated at GREATER than the fuse that feeds it!!! NOT just rated for the job it has to do. You have to think about fault conditions, and ensure that the weakest link in any circuit is always, without fail, the fuse.
Why did I assume 12v and not the 14v that the car system will normally operate at? Well, do the calculation again with 14v... The current is less! You must always, always assume worst case scenario when designing a circuit. This is also why it is dangerous connecting 12V equipment to a 6V circuit and vice versa. More on that later, but if you use that formula up there ^ you will see why.
And it is THAT simple. Different manufacturers have different ratings for cables, and will always have a table that will allow you to figure out what cable can carry what current. These will have voltage and current ratings. So if it says 40A 240V then it does NOT mean it can carry 40A, it means that it can carry 40A at 240V! This is why it is safer for a layman to buy automotive cable that is assumed to be operating at 12v. The same goes for fuses, you MUST use a fuse that has the operating voltage that you are using!! If you stick a mains fuse in a car, it will take a LOT more than the rated current to blow it.
Just remember, these two formulas:
Voltage = Current x Resistance
and
Power = Current x Voltage
With these you can always calculate what CSA (cross sectional area, or gauge) wire you will need with the information a manufacturer gives. REMEMBER: THE CURRENT CARRYING CAPACITY ASSUMES A NOMINAL VOLTAGE! So a 40A mains cable assumes 240vAC. Make sure you factor in the fact that you are using 12v!!!!
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Last Edit: Jun 7, 2017 16:07:30 GMT by fad
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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What tools are good to carry? A good selection of tools in your retro or classic is essential if you want to get yourself out of trouble on the road. So, this is what I would recommend you put in your boot: A cheapy digital multimeter A spool of cable, something around 18awg for all-purpose getting-out-of-the-poo repairs A pair of sharp snips A pair of pliers A small selection of screwdrivers (insulated for preference) A handful of cable ties A roll of electrical tape (all tapes are NOT equal. It's expensive, but I cannot recommend Scotch 88 tape highly enough. I used it all the time offshore, its durable, stretches well, doesn't unstick easily, and though they don't say it I can tell you from experience that if you apply it properly, its waterproof) A cheap crimp terminal set A handful of fuses A spare relay A bulb set A stanley knife A pair of wire strippers So what is acceptable with connections and insulation? Well, we see all sorts of things that make us wince with electrical systems, and lots of things we think look fine. You would be surprised what is, and isn't, ok! Firstly, mains cable (as mentioned). It looks gash, it screams "BODGE!", but actually, it isn't. It's perfectly acceptable to use mains cable, or any cable, provided it is suitable for purpose. So, the insulation must be in good order. The CSA of the cable must be suitable for the load it will carry, and for fault conditions it may be subjected to. Provided these considerations are met, there is no reason mains cable cannot be used, other than it looks gash as you like! Connections... Frequently we see chock block, scotch block, electrical tape, crimps, and all manner of connections in a car. Lets start with what is NOT acceptable... Insulation taped joints - these are an emergency repair ONLY! They should get you home and then be done properly! But if you are stuck, and need to do something to make a bodge to get you out of the poo, then the best way to make a joint is to strip around 20mm on insulation off. (Mine are a shade short here) Put them together parallel, like this: Twist them together Tape them up like so And make sure your tape goes over the end of the twists, like this: If you have cable ties, stick one around the cables to hold them together and stop them coming apart when they get pulled. Make the repair good when you get home!!!!! Don't leave it like that! So why do I suggest doing it this way? Well, you are getting the maximum contact between the cables, which means you aren't creating a weak point of less conductive material (dodgy connections create heat), you are getting a stronger bond than any other way, it will tolerate being tugged and pulled, and it looks gash as hell, which means it will be less likely to end up as a permanent repair! Crimp Connections I frequently see crimped connections that are not up to standard. So what is an acceptable way of doing it? Well, a good ratchet crimp tool is essential. One like this: Leave this one in your boot for emergencies: How do you make a good crimp joint? What is good and what is bad? Well... Firstly, look at what you are crimping. If you have a flag terminal you need to put a spade onto, that will be different to if you are connecting two cables together. Use the appropriate crimp for the job! If your connection is carrying a live voltage (12v for example) then if is good practice to use an insulated crimp if possible, like this one: If its going to be an earth, then insulation is not required. Take your cable, and strip some insulation off the end (10 or 20mm). Be careful not to cut the conductors off too, if you do, strip some more off and try again! You can use cable strippers but I find a stanley knife of snips works for me too. Experiment, see what you feel best using. So, you've stripped the cable. Pop the crimp on the end to check fitment. Trim your bared conductor if needed. The cable should be a snug fit inside the crimp, if its too loose, your crimp is too big. If its tight and there are strands sticking out everywhere, you are too small. DO NOT CHEAT! You cannot cut off strands to make it fit in and undersize crimp, if you do this, you are de-rating the capacity of the cable you are using. You are looking to make sure that the sheath of the crimp comes over the insulation of your cable, like this: The conductor should hit the little stop in the crimp. You should NOT have any exposed conductor, like this: Place it in the crimping tool: And, squeeeeeeze! Keep going until the ratchet releases and the jaws open. Make sure your cable doesn't move while you are crimping, and thoroughly check afterwards both visually, and give it a good tug. You should not be able to physically pull it off the cable by hand.
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rude
Part of things
Posts: 537
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Just out of interest,
a) if you want a car plagued with electrical problems to use as a test example, hit me up but beware of what you will be getting in to!
And...
2) I'm sure as many others have seen, especially radios, connected with those household connector blocks where someone has tore off the OEM plug with their teeth. I've always thought that they would cause problems with heat or a build up of something because they have a lot of metal in them, is that true or are they just horrific to look at?
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1986 Haunted BMW E24 635CSi 1999 Povo spec BMW E36 1.8i Touring Work Hack 2001 Petrol annihilating Discovery V8 2000 Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 ~NEW~
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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a) Electrical problems are seldom the only problem! 4) The household connector blocks... You mean these? They are just fine to use in theory, they are just ugly as sin, big, bulky, easy to over tighten and damage conductors and horrible in just about every way. As an aside, if you want a quick connector that is easy to use, reusable, neat, tidy and awesome in just about every way, wago connectors are wicked! LOVE them!
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heathrobinson
Part of things
Broken everything
Posts: 848
Club RR Member Number: 111
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I've started stashing Wago connectors in the pockets of my clothing, they're such a useful get-out-of-trouble item to have around!
My issue with mains cable is that it's larger cores fatigue quickly - someone had used it as an earth strap on our landy, and the constant vibration and engine twist caused it to shear off, leaving me somewhat stuck! I'm pretty sure flex would last well, but anything with a heavy core to it will eventually fatigue.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Ah single core! Yes, that should not be used, ever, on a vehicle. Ever.
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I have a pair of decent ratcheting crimpers (I can take a photo if needed) but they are hopeless as crimping uninsulated terminals like the ones that go into relay holders. You have to part crimp, then turn it over and crimp again.
I'm assuming this is due to having the wrong crimpers for these terminals but when ive searched for the right crimpers they look just like mine.
What's the deal?
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Different jaw sizes basically. There are a few different crimps and tools out there.
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I've read before to avoid soldering - as it's easy to do it badly/end up with dry joints and problems down the line that can be difficult to trace? if you need to repair a section of cable - are crimped butt connectors ok for the job?
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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The issue with soldering is it doesn't cope well with being moved or vibrated, and as you say its easy to do but easy to get wrong.
Crimps are fine for repairs using bullet connectors though I tend to solder repairs and heat shrink them. I will post a "how to" later
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heathrobinson
Part of things
Broken everything
Posts: 848
Club RR Member Number: 111
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Have you seen these things? Self-soldering adhesive heat shrink... Pretty much witchcraft. Push stripped ends in, blast with a heat gun for a short while, and Robert's your father's brother.
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,946
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Have you seen these things? Self-soldering adhesive heat shrink... Pretty much witchcraft. Push stripped ends in, blast with a heat gun for a short while, and Robert's your father's brother. Used to use those when I were a lad at a Peugeot dealers 106 and 306 air bag connectors underneath the front seats used to get the right hump with anyone weighing more than a string of onions in them. The official Peugeot fix was to cut out the connector and use Raychem joiners. And they knew how to charge for them too, 15quid for 3 in a pack
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Never used them before so no idea how good they are?
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sb
Part of things
Posts: 725
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Have you seen these things? Self-soldering adhesive heat shrink... Pretty much witchcraft. Push stripped ends in, blast with a heat gun for a short while, and Robert's your father's brother. don't know how much I would trust something that can melt under a heat gun to hold a wire together in a car. Especially when solder and heat shrink is very easy and cheap.
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Last Edit: Jun 9, 2017 19:00:30 GMT by sb
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heathrobinson
Part of things
Broken everything
Posts: 848
Club RR Member Number: 111
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It's just low temp solder, I've cut one apart and the contact is brilliant. As mk2cossie says they've been about a while, and they're pretty much exactly the same as soldering and putting heat shrink on, except that it's manifoldly easier. They're a damn sight better than a crimp connector, and if you've got a nice little nozzle for your heat gun, they can be used in tighter confines.
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a) Electrical problems are seldom the only problem! 4) The household connector blocks... You mean these? They are just fine to use in theory, they are just ugly as sin, big, bulky, easy to over tighten and damage conductors and horrible in just about every way. As an aside, if you want a quick connector that is easy to use, reusable, neat, tidy and awesome in just about every way, wago connectors are wicked! LOVE them! The main problem with connector blocks is people use the wrong size (too big) and overtighten them, cracking the bottom of the casting. Either use the right size or double the cable over so it fills the connector. That saying, ive always used crimps for years as superior, and wago's where i can (i.e when stocked on company account). And don't be tempted by what another lad on here did and explain how its far superior to not strip the cable and let the screw of the connector bite down through the insulation. Thats what leads to poor, high resistance joints. (This info is not aimed at you btw fad, i gather that you know what your doing. What do you actually do job wise to have the knowledge youve displayed on electrics before? You seem a bit more involved than a normal sparky...)
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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My qualifications are a bit all over the place. But stuff that is relevant to automotive electronics... Apprenticeship served electronics engineer Ex-RAF ground electronics (RADAR, radio, telecoms, satcomms etc), Ex-offshore geophysics engineer (seismic streamers, SONAR, analogue sub bottom profilers, echo sounders, loads of different bits of kit) Qualified electrician (domestic and commercial sparks) Currently employed at Newcastle Uni as tech for the Urban Observatory (air quality monitors, traffic monitors, pedestrian flow and footfall counters, wireless and fixed comms, beehive monitoring, all sorts of weird and wacky things).
Nowt to do with automotive sparks though :lol: (also an ex-chef, ex-pub landlord, and have a bunch of mechanical qualifications as well as firefighting, survival, first aid, crane driving, and a load of other random stuff... I've lived a bit LOL!!)
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Last Edit: Jun 10, 2017 9:59:24 GMT by fad
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