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May 19, 2017 15:28:02 GMT
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I am particularly interested in this thread as my father had one back in the day and I never really appreciated what they were. I recall epic stories of dices with an XK120 on the then Great North road with the Jupiter losing out on the straights but more than making it up on the bends... I have a photograph of the car somewhere and wonder if it is still around. From memory the registration number was OLO 660. If you can confirm the registration index I will try to see if it is still within the club - although this may take a little while That would be great thank you very much indeed! It would seem the photo is still at my father's so there will be a delay in confirmation. |
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May 20, 2017 21:30:17 GMT
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Nearside rear shroud & side panel now getting close to final profile  Final self levelling glaze applied in order to reduce minor undulation  Happy with the door gapping at the B post  Bolted the rear wing temporary to mark up new repair panels for drilling of holes / mounting bolts  Removed the wing / drilled holes and rehung the wing - it gives me a more solid base on which to work on it from whilst also a better prospective of the profiling can be maintained  It's had it's fair share of battering's during it's life  Removed the rest of the paint with 80's discs on the DA  Then spent some time with the hammer & dolly straightening the wing up ready for profiling |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,071
Club RR Member Number: 146
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May 20, 2017 23:45:53 GMT
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wow, that wing's had a really hard life! You'll not know it when you're finished with it though. I'm amazed at how even that door gap is, not used to seeing that on a car of this vintage at all.
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I've been loving this thread! Really nice to see this sort of craftsmanship.
As for it being a dying art, I think there's definitely a revival going on. My customer has just taken on a 19 year old apprentice, learning everything that goes into classic car bodywork and custom fabrication from a very capable craftsman.
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I've been loving this thread! Really nice to see this sort of craftsmanship. As for it being a dying art, I think there's definitely a revival going on. My customer has just taken on a 19 year old apprentice, learning everything that goes into classic car bodywork and custom fabrication from a very capable craftsman. It's nice to hear that the opportunities are still being offered to the younger generation however, from what I see it is very few and far between - I have a 4 piece folding bonnet off a vintage Jowett with me at present - it is a new fabrication with welded hinges - the welding has inevitably created distortion on the flat surfaces - the owner went to 3 bodyshops and they all turned him away saying they could not do anything with it - fact is that modern bodyshops don't really have the skillbase anymore - panel beaters have been replaced with panel fitters - panels are rarely repaired anymore they just replace them - painters are still painters but the younger generation of painters are clueless when it comes to solvent based paint / single pack enamel systems has used on just about all vehicles pre 1990 - Obviously the majority of bodyshops are set up for accident repair of modern vehicles - they can turn them around quick and the with the right facilities make good profit, the smart repair market which has mushroomed over the last 20 years that resolves the minor scrape / dent end of the market - you may get the odd small bodyshop which carries good reputation for high quality work that are good all rounder's and will take anything on they tend to be a family business or a long term trading partnership - that just leaves the back street / under the arches type who will do anything for cash - what you get for your cash is another thing. The specialist classic car restorer resolves a lot of issues when it comes to panel & paintwork and whilst some will cater for the RR end of the market and by this I mean good quality work at a fair price - a lot of the restorers tend to cater for the higher end value vehicles - higher / rarer vehicles = you can charge for more per hour / restoration on a rare spec Mercedes SL Pagoda worth £125k than you can a Mk3 Capri 2.8i worth £12k I am sure that I am not unique but I am probably a rare case - I carry a lot of passion / detail in my work with the fact it is it's what I want do rather than have to do in the first place - coupled with the fact that its either done right otherwise it is not something that I want to do. I have a rare set of circumstances that allows me to do it - but it is just as much about the correct work life balance has it is earning a wage for something that I thoroughly enjoy doing more than anything else. |
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Last Edit: May 21, 2017 9:33:43 GMT by Deleted
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,071
Club RR Member Number: 146
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May 21, 2017 12:24:33 GMT
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A big part of the reason for doing the bodywork on my own cars, to a lower standard than I'd like, is that I couldn't find any decent restorer willing to take them on, even for simple jobs. One look at the car and they just weren't interested, some were honest and said the car wasn't worth it, or that they weren't interested in it. Some were very rude. Taking it anywhere else I couldn't guarantee they'd actually repair the car properly and I wasn't prepared to fork out good money for filler and flash painting.
There's not a huge enough demand to justify a supply, unfortunately. Having been the other side of the fence, what most customers want is unrealistic. Even simple repairs, done well, takes a lot of time and unfortunately a lot of money as a result. There's no way a whole car can have rust repair done to every panel to a halfway decent standard for £1000 but that's what the customer wants. They also want paint and polish in that price.
I'm not sure where the disconnect comes from. Perhaps it's the TV shows that make it look like restoration is a quick three day thing? I don't know. I wish I had enough money to get my cars professionally restored and to be able to pay the restorer enough that they didn't feel the job was a chore. Threads like this sometimes make me feel bad about the quality of my own work but inspire and inform me so that I can do better. I hope I'm not alone in that.
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May 21, 2017 12:35:59 GMT
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Brilliant work....I'm surprised at the size of the boot and bonnet panels...they are quite big for single piece panels...
The project is really looking nice
do you shape the panels with any heat when you use the spoons and slappers, ect?
JP
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I know its spelled Norman Luxury Yacht, but its pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove!
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May 21, 2017 13:03:53 GMT
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A big part of the reason for doing the bodywork on my own cars, to a lower standard than I'd like, is that I couldn't find any decent restorer willing to take them on, even for simple jobs. One look at the car and they just weren't interested, some were honest and said the car wasn't worth it, or that they weren't interested in it. Some were very rude. Taking it anywhere else I couldn't guarantee they'd actually repair the car properly and I wasn't prepared to fork out good money for filler and flash painting. There's not a huge enough demand to justify a supply, unfortunately. Having been the other side of the fence, what most customers want is unrealistic. Even simple repairs, done well, takes a lot of time and unfortunately a lot of money as a result. There's no way a whole car can have rust repair done to every panel to a halfway decent standard for £1000 but that's what the customer wants. They also want paint and polish in that price. I'm not sure where the disconnect comes from. Perhaps it's the TV shows that make it look like restoration is a quick three day thing? I don't know. I wish I had enough money to get my cars professionally restored and to be able to pay the restorer enough that they didn't feel the job was a chore. Threads like this sometimes make me feel bad about the quality of my own work but inspire and inform me so that I can do better. I hope I'm not alone in that. I agree whole hartedly, Fast N Loud, Classic Car Rescue, Misfit Gararge, Wheeler Dealers and Car SoS do not give a clear portraial of classic vehicle restoration granted some are more "lets see what the biggest engine we can fit in a car and fit air ride to" none of them except Car SoS come close to showing what is involved with a full restoration, but even that program takes longer than the time stated in an episode to do each vehicle if you can watch a box set of Car SoS when you watch tnem don't focus on the main car look at the backgrounds and you will see the cars from the other episodes, these programs are good to watch and intresting mainly due to the fact they are not spending your money, but they do white wash over everything to do with classic vehicle restoration. Most modern body shops are just like main dealer garages they just take things off and put things on and re set it with a computer there is no skill to what they do or finess and a waist of time as far as anything needed to be done to a vehicle older than 10 years old. |
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Last Edit: May 21, 2017 13:04:22 GMT by peteh1969
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May 21, 2017 15:21:32 GMT
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A big part of the reason for doing the bodywork on my own cars, to a lower standard than I'd like, is that I couldn't find any decent restorer willing to take them on, even for simple jobs. One look at the car and they just weren't interested, some were honest and said the car wasn't worth it, or that they weren't interested in it. Some were very rude. Taking it anywhere else I couldn't guarantee they'd actually repair the car properly and I wasn't prepared to fork out good money for filler and flash painting. There's not a huge enough demand to justify a supply, unfortunately. Having been the other side of the fence, what most customers want is unrealistic. Even simple repairs, done well, takes a lot of time and unfortunately a lot of money as a result. There's no way a whole car can have rust repair done to every panel to a halfway decent standard for £1000 but that's what the customer wants. They also want paint and polish in that price. I'm not sure where the disconnect comes from. Perhaps it's the TV shows that make it look like restoration is a quick three day thing? I don't know. I wish I had enough money to get my cars professionally restored and to be able to pay the restorer enough that they didn't feel the job was a chore. Threads like this sometimes make me feel bad about the quality of my own work but inspire and inform me so that I can do better. I hope I'm not alone in that. There is nothing wrong in you attempting what you can with what you have - ask for help advice when you feel you need it / post up issues (which you do) and between the forum there is normally some response that assists you / forum members along the way - it may just be morale or confidence that some of the forum members need or sometimes it's a trick of the trade or an unknown trade product. I hope that has you put it any negative downside to what you achieve becomes / turns positive with inspiration - the strongest advice I could give is 'Never beat yourself up over what you are attempting to achieve' if it's not quite as good as you would like it - learn from it and do it again - I never mastered my craft without making no end of mistakes. |
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Last Edit: May 21, 2017 21:54:32 GMT by Deleted
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May 21, 2017 15:33:50 GMT
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Brilliant work....I'm surprised at the size of the boot and bonnet panels...they are quite big for single piece panels... The project is really looking nice do you shape the panels with any heat when you use the spoons and slappers, ect? JP I do re-anneal alloys that are badly distorted / dinged otherwise has you start to straighten the panel up the alloy will start to crack / stress - especially old alloys that were not of that good a quality when new - one of the larger problems with alloy panelled cars of this era is that the effect of dissimilar metals were not taken into account when the car was built - so where the wheelarch on the wings are formed over a steel wire bead - 65 years on and the alloy edge of the bead is badly corroded in some areas of the panels - behind the scenes Keith who owns the car has been letting in new alloy sections into the panels where required - he opted to undertake this in order to keep his restoration bill in check - fine by me so long has the repairs are of a good enough quality |
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May 21, 2017 21:57:30 GMT
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Had an hour or so on the profiling of the wing today - needs a lot more yet  |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,482
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@grumpynorthener, I see you drawing on your work a lot. Now most of the scribblings come across as areas you highlight as possibly too high or too low things like that. But what is the purpose of you drawing those lines on the basically finished profile? What do they help you with?
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@grumpynorthener, I see you drawing on your work a lot. Now most of the scribblings come across as areas you highlight as possibly too high or too low things like that. But what is the purpose of you drawing those lines on the basically finished profile? What do they help you with? When working large areas I always highlight with pencil high / low areas or areas that may require rework or a new hole drilled through - it makes an easy job of reapplying the filler skims rather than having to remember the multiple areas - when working with multiple of panels in order to keep good work progress i.e. commencing on one panel - have another panel at a mid stage whilst bringing a third panel to completion - has I complete areas I drag a diagonal line / cross hatch across them with pencil has an indicator that I am happy with that areas profiles and I can move on to other areas on the same panel or to another panel - you can also say that I use it has a mind set on large projects - the more lines you see the closer to the finish line you are - This is important when you are plugging away at profiling every panel on a vehicle which may take several days / weeks - it's monotonous, laborious, can be quite tiring when constantly working the profiles by hand and can appear never ending - it is very easy loose your way / loose interest in what you are attempting to achieve - allow this to happen at this stage and the paint will highlight undulating panel profiles and lack of care / attention to detail. To view the panels come to completion is the tick in the box that you need to visually see - Its a 'Matter over Mind' vs 'Mind over Matter' thing that works for me (also how I was taught by the master of his craft when I was apprenticed) - I have never found a better way of doing it so It's stuck with me for the last 40 years. |
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Last Edit: May 22, 2017 9:58:42 GMT by Deleted
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,482
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May 22, 2017 11:07:25 GMT
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Thanks for your explanation. Very comprehensible!
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May 22, 2017 11:41:31 GMT
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Great explanations into WHY something is done and also HOW....the addition of mindset cues and tricks is brilliant. I will sharpen my pencils!
Now I see why you do not want to overwork these panels...I would imagine that re-annealing is necessary more than once?
the car looks beautiful, great progress.
JP
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I know its spelled Norman Luxury Yacht, but its pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove!
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May 22, 2017 14:16:17 GMT
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Great explanations into WHY something is done and also HOW....the addition of mindset cues and tricks is brilliant. I will sharpen my pencils! Now I see why you do not want to overwork these panels...I would imagine that re-annealing is necessary more than once? the car looks beautiful, great progress. JP JP - Yes it all depends on how much damage there is obviously the more hammer / dolly work the quicker the alloy hardens up - you soon get a feel for it - Paint & bodywork is not all about having the hand to eye coordination skills and the kit - mind set, practical targets, flexibility & 'can do' attitude all play a big part Chris |
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Last Edit: May 22, 2017 14:16:55 GMT by Deleted
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May 23, 2017 21:40:39 GMT
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Still plugging away at the rear profiles   Rear half of the wing completed  The join between the rear shroud and the wing has a wing piping fitted when painted, the lamp aperture is not critical has I am refitting the original lamp cowls to the wing / shroud - to date it has run with rubber insert / lens type fitting similar to the classic mini front indicator lamps Then removed the wing so that Keith could crack on with the welded repairs on the forward arch edges  Meanwhile on the offside rear shroud the profiling continues  I wonder if I can interest the Tate Gallery in my panel profile jottings  Started to shape up the rear flap  Getting there - offside shroud panel now in glaze - hopefully get this completed tomorrow in between everything else that I got to get done |
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May 24, 2017 12:43:32 GMT
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loving this with the detailed photos and descriptions, I know you have enough on your plate but it would be great to have a list somewhere on the RR board with what products to use on what materials in which order eg primers, seam sealers, top coats etc, but on another note what is glaze?!
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May 24, 2017 13:43:28 GMT
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loving this with the detailed photos and descriptions, I know you have enough on your plate but it would be great to have a list somewhere on the RR board with what products to use on what materials in which order eg primers, seam sealers, top coats etc, but on another note what is glaze?! Can do - I have a paint & body thread running in the Technical Section and can go through this but then again has all the images are in this thread and self explanatory to a degree - maybe I get the car into paint and can then sum up the products & process at the end - that way you can refer back to the images if needs be. Glaze is a final filler product - still mixed with a hardener and applied like filler with a spreader - however it is more viscus in form - self levelling and unlike filler flows out - it is used in thin skims to eliminate undulation in work areas - can be applied very thinly if required and can be sanded / feathered back to a virtual transparent layer - there are several brands on the market - personally I use U Pol 'Dolphin Glaze' - it can be seen in the image as the greenish looking covering on the panel |
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Last Edit: May 24, 2017 13:45:22 GMT by Deleted
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Back to the profiling after our short break away to Scotland Offside rear wing rehung and profiling to the front section of it underway (rear half already completed)   Profiling to the rear nearside of the shroud completed and the nearside rear wing hung  Much like the offside rear wing the nearside has also seen much activity and requires a fair share of reshaping |
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