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Apr 13, 2017 12:25:35 GMT
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If I can butt in here-
Lechlar epoxy primer. It's 2 pack so you need to get the correct 3M '28 day' mask and wear gloves when using it but it can be applied with a wickes 4" gloss roller to very good effect (throw roller away after use) and also by using the roller the paint is safer as it's not atomised like it would be when spraying.
Only use in a extremely well ventilated area without a full air fed mask but its brilliant paint and sticks to just about anything. As said - prep is everything, make sure all surfaces are clean and well roughed up first - use 'panel wipe' to degrease and make sure all parts are completely dry.
don't spray on cold surfaces - they may have a coat of moisture on that you cannot see, this could result in the paint peeling off that you have encountered.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:14:33 GMT
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Could you recommend a suitable paint for the underside and inner arches of a VW shell? I’m on my third attempt with this and would like to avoid a fourth… The base I’m applying to is about 80% the standard factory applied underseal (in great condition) with the other 20% being made up of various areas I’ve ground back for rust / weld repairs. I’d originally gone with a Hammerite primer and topcoat, however after reading a lot of horror stories I thought it best use something with a better reputation. I’ve since tried POR 15 but have had terrible results - It’s coming off in sheets even on primed areas and on areas that have been treated with their branded metal prep. Any suggestions? I’m working in a single car garage (although the car is on a spit) without access to a compressor, so I think I’m limited to brush on or aerosol paints. My next plan had been to remove as much of the por15 as I can and seal everything in with an isolator paint, then apply a topcoat of gravitex stonechip - Is this wise? Thanks in advance! You could apply Gavitex - but I have another option that I have been using for over 30 years without issue - so once you have primed any bare metal areas / applied seam sealer etc - I use Dinitrol 4941 - it's a very high quality undersealing product that is sprayed on - fortunately it also comes in a aerosol - see link below to my supplier - never had a problem with it and once applied looks like a factory applied product - guaranteed to work - however if your underbody is painted in a factory colour then you are back to applying a stone chip product and overpainting it - let us know how you get on - Chris www.dinitroldirect.com/product/dinitrol-4941-car-underbody-protection-oem/
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Apr 14, 2017 10:26:30 GMT
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you could apply Gavitex - but I have another option that I have been using for over 30 years without issue - so once you have primed any bare metal areas / applied seam sealer etc - I use Dinitrol 4941 - it's a very high quality undersealing product that is sprayed on - fortunately it also comes in a aerosol - see link below to my supplier - never had a problem with it and once applied looks like a factory applied product - guaranteed to work - however if your underbody is painted in a factory colour then you are back to applying a stone chip product and overpainting it - let us know how you get on - Chris www.dinitroldirect.com/product/dinitrol-4941-car-underbody-protection-oem/is this a bitumen based under body sealant? (not a loaded question!)
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Last Edit: Apr 14, 2017 10:26:45 GMT by darrenh
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Apr 14, 2017 10:42:21 GMT
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you could apply Gavitex - but I have another option that I have been using for over 30 years without issue - so once you have primed any bare metal areas / applied seam sealer etc - I use Dinitrol 4941 - it's a very high quality undersealing product that is sprayed on - fortunately it also comes in a aerosol - see link below to my supplier - never had a problem with it and once applied looks like a factory applied product - guaranteed to work - however if your underbody is painted in a factory colour then you are back to applying a stone chip product and overpainting it - let us know how you get on - Chris www.dinitroldirect.com/product/dinitrol-4941-car-underbody-protection-oem/is this a bitumen based under body sealant? (not a loaded question!) I will be honest - I don't know - here is the TDS / Technical Data Sheet for it (although it looks like you may have to copy & paste the link to your browser) file:///C:/Users/My%20Laptop/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/BUE94MKA/DINITROL-4941-Black-20-L-1-P-TDS.pdf I find it more of a hard wax than bitumen based although would not be surprised if there is a bitumen content to it - one thing is for sure is that this product is a million miles better than any of your standard 'Sultz' gun based products - All Dinitrol products are very high quality and are extensively utilised in OE manufacture of vehicles throughout the world
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Last Edit: Apr 14, 2017 10:45:20 GMT by Deleted
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Apr 14, 2017 19:53:55 GMT
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Thanks PH - I sometimes wish I was this clever with links / PC's in general - but I'm not
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Apr 14, 2017 20:25:20 GMT
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Cheers guys, appreciate the help! No doubt I'll have further questions when I move to the main body prep
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I've sprayed many things with aresols over the years and despite being getting a good finish, it's getting a tough finish that's seems to prove most difficult!!
Is this generally down to the type of paint, the prep, the thickness or the curing (or something else)?
I'll give you a couple of examples (all areosols):
bike frame, rubbed down, etch primed, Halfords acrylic paint. Left about a week to dry (shed, summer). The paint seemed very to come off very easily (resting against something wooden), bits would come off. I assume it was poor degreasing after primer (use actual panel wipe).
General engine part (rocker covers,etc..) bare metalled then engine enamel used. Seems tougher than acrylic, but even after being left a good week before refitting - and little knock (spanner while refitting/knocking against other bits of metal) results in chippping very easily.
Just very disheartening when you've tried to make sure things are clean and free of contaminates/seems nothing lasts :-(
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Last Edit: May 21, 2017 9:14:20 GMT by sarkie83
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I've sprayed many things with aresols over the years and despite being getting a good finish, it's getting a tough finish that's seems to prove most difficult!! Is this generally down to the type of paint, the prep, the thickness or the curing (or something else)? I'll give you a couple of examples (all areosols): bike frame, rubbed down, etch primed, Halfords acrylic paint. Left about a week to dry (shed, summer). The paint seemed very to come off very easily (resting against something wooden), bits would come off. I assume it was poor degreasing after primer (use actual panel wipe). General engine part (rocker covers,etc..) bare metalled then engine enamel used. Seems tougher than acrylic, but even after being left a good week before refitting - and little knock (spanner while refitting/knocking against other bits of metal) results in chippping very easily. Just very disheartening when you've tried to make sure things are clean and free of contaminates/seems nothing lasts :-( It's a combination factor - good preparation vs good quality materials - I personally don't rate most paint products from Halfords - might look good in a fancy labelled tin but it is what is inside that matters - whilst I appreciate that it may be handy to call in at your local motorist so called discount centre (don't know where the 'discount' comes in because everything is normally overpriced) you would be far better searching out a good trade automotive paint factors / suppliers - from experience the independents are better with the service / advice side of things than the larger chain type factors - some of the independent paint factors will be able to offer a any paint / any colour service for aerosols (my local factor certainly does) Some will do this online / down the end of the phone and post it out to you but far better that you find a good local one that you can get good service / direct advice from. Your paint loss problem will be down to preparation, odd shaped items like tubes / frames are not easy to fully flat down - consider using a 'Flatting Paste / Compound' (several brands in the market) with a lightly damped piece of fine / extra fine scotchbrite - use it like a rubbing compound over pervious surfaces / primers but ensure to wash off / clean all traces of it off prior to paint. Engine enamels are awkward - ensure that any alloy parts are suitably etch primed first and use a high quality enamel - the cheap end of the market is rubbish - it sets very hard and works against you has the slightest tap with anything and the paint will chip - Hammerite does the same - the amount of owners that I seen paint all the suspension parts on a vehicle in Hammerite only for stone chips to start knocking the paint off within the first few miles. You are part way there with the prep - good use of solvent wipe etc - try to hang freshly painted items up rather than rest them against anything - a little more time spent on prep and some better materials - (they are probably no more expensive than Halfords) and you will yield good results - just post up and further issues that you may have - good luck - Chris
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Last Edit: May 22, 2017 7:00:28 GMT by Deleted
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May 21, 2017 18:00:58 GMT
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Hi Chris, Great thread, I'm glad a professional is advising painting matters and putting right the rubbish urban myths about how to paint. I've been on a lot of forums where advice is banded around by amateurs who know a bloke down the pub, who's dad painted a garden gate years a go & his method is the best way to paint a car, blah,blah,blah. and the poor results speak for themselves. By coincidence reading your introduction, it seams we have a familiar history to the motor trade, ie being apprentices, then a career change, then getting back into it. Here's my car I restored a few years a go... Primered with epoxy by roller btw, lol
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 18:05:49 GMT
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@grumpynorthener what actually is hammerite ? by that i mean their smooth range (used to be called smoothrite)
is it just 1k synth coach enamel ?
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May 21, 2017 18:08:40 GMT
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@grumpynorthener what actually is hammerite ? by that i mean their smooth range (used to be called smoothrite) is it just 1k synth coach enamel ? It's machinery paint, requires no primer, great for machines, but rubbish on cars and no it's not coach enamel
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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May 21, 2017 18:26:22 GMT
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One major thing I never hear on these sort of threads is prepping your gear for any sort of painting . I drain the compressor and have a big water trap and filter on the compressor and use little gun filters and use strainers and measuring cups for any 2k stuff . I'm fortunate to have central heating in my garage so it's on full bore 30c to get the temp stable and it allows you to really get stuck in.
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May 21, 2017 18:27:08 GMT
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To add to my above post, imo there is no paint that cures rust by painting over it, no anti rust paint with active ingredients otherwise car manufacturers & trade would be using them, the only way to slow down rust is to remove it before you paint it. Lastly never use paints that say they do would be the best advice I would give anybody, rant over
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 18:34:36 GMT
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It's machinery paint, requires no primer, great for machines, but rubbish on cars and no it's not coach enamel acrylic? cellulose? urethane ? oil based ? that was my question
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May 21, 2017 18:53:11 GMT
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It's machinery paint, requires no primer, great for machines, but rubbish on cars and no it's not coach enamel acrylic? cellulose? urethane ? oil based ? that was my question It's none of those as I know all of the above base resins & tbh I don't exactly what its base resin Hammerite use that determines it category, as it has it's own thinner that doesn't mix with anything else, I just know as machinery paint that you can't re-coat for months afterwards, never use any Hammerite products on cars is my advice.
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 20:09:30 GMT
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Hi Chris, Great thread, I'm glad a professional is advising painting matters and putting right the rubbish urban myths about how to paint. I've been on a lot of forums where advice is banded around by amateurs who know a bloke down the pub, who's dad painted a garden gate years a go & his method is the best way to paint a car, blah,blah,blah. and the poor results speak for themselves. By coincidence reading your introduction, it seams we have a familiar history to the motor trade, ie being apprentices, then a career change, then getting back into it. Here's my car I restored a few years a go... Primered with epoxy by roller btw, lol Martin - Very nice motor & paint job - lusted after a AM for years - had a Lambo Espada for a while but never quite got round to the AM - someday maybe - I hope that between the paint & body thread & my restoration threads that others can pick up on working methods / hints and tips that will give them confidence to undertake work that they would normally avoid doing. I am sure that you would agree that it's not all down to what we have been taught but quite often through attempting / trying again / practice / more practice etc - combine this with some research / watch / listen / learn - with the availability of the internet the research bit has never been easier. Keen to see how you get on with gas welding alloy - I need to give it a bash (can gas weld steel without issue) - I have a Jupiter project of my own but it requires far more restoration than the one that I am currently undertaking - also plan to modify the rear shroud and form a boot lid / boot area (later models had a boot area but these are very rare cars )
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Last Edit: May 21, 2017 20:22:44 GMT by Deleted
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May 21, 2017 20:15:59 GMT
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One major thing I never hear on these sort of threads is prepping your gear for any sort of painting . I drain the compressor and have a big water trap and filter on the compressor and use little gun filters and use strainers and measuring cups for any 2k stuff . I'm fortunate to have central heating in my garage so it's on full bore 30c to get the temp stable and it allows you to really get stuck in. Froggy - By pure coincidence I am just putting a couple of pieces together for this thread - initially I am going to cover paint contaminates (there are more than you think) - Just got images together to start on the first one and others will follow - I have a couple of restoration threads running too that primarily centre on body / paintwork so these also raise paint / body questions along the way - will possibly get the first one out this evening and will cover paintwork silicone contamination initially.
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Last Edit: May 21, 2017 20:24:04 GMT by Deleted
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May 21, 2017 21:02:12 GMT
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Thanks Chris,
You never stop learning & being open minded is always a good thing, everybody has their own twist on things, to get the job done, but the fundamentals are always the best starting points, get them wrong & the job goes south very quickly.
Back in the old days, etch primer was king for aluminium, but having tried Epoxy on my AM, I can see the advantages, I'm still a solvent guy, haven't tried waterbased basecoats yet as I've seen them peel off! My paint process btw is, 120g d/a sand bare metal, Epoxy primer applied with a foam roller,no waste, then filler work/blocking, seal filler with Epoxy again, then 2k high build primer to level everything out from 180g-320g, followed by 2 coats of 2k solid colour gloss coat as an undercoat to check reflections & fill any scratches to 800g w&d, as any metallic/pearl basecoat will show scratches left in the prep, then b/c & lacquer to finish. All my prep work is hand blocked, I never use a machine. Finally wet flat lacquer 800-2000, then use 3" polishing heads to finish, this is my method at the moment, if I pick up a new tip, then I'll try it.
I know the above method is probably not commercially viable, but I have no time pressures or profit to consider, so I imagine it's a very different issue for you running a business.
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 22:04:31 GMT
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Only two pages in and already i've learned so much! Just wondering now how i am going to get the Hammerite off my suspension components, and what should i coat them with instead? Would powder coating them be best?
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