gavs1
Part of things
Posts: 571
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Mar 28, 2016 16:03:58 GMT
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So does anybody know somebody who has put an alien lump in a Roller or Bentley? The banger racers have bin doin it for years, has bin on my list of wants to do in my time sum whooping grate bus engine huuuge turbo job done |
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Sept 11, 2019 20:01:28 GMT
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Thread revival alert! I have an Om606 lying about and a cheap rolls on the horizon.. The only thing that is stumping me about this is that damned hydraulic system. My merc has hydraulic rear sls which in theory could be used.. But the braking has got me completely stumped.
The rolls has 2 hydraulic pumps like injectors run off the cam..seems like it will be a ball ache to replace
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Colonelk
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,740
Club RR Member Number: 83
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Sept 11, 2019 20:09:00 GMT
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Are they not a Citroen based system? Could you use an engine driven pump from a BX or similar?  |
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Sept 11, 2019 20:39:25 GMT
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I did think about that... The suspension is not really a concern.. It is the mental braking system. The citroens pump deals with suspension only to my knowledge..but that has given me an idea so thanks! I thought about commoning up the two systems so the low pressure side from the reservoir joins in a t piece down to the single inlet to a citroen pump, then the same again at the outlet.. One outlet branching off to the dual systems.would keep it wafting along nicely without mass butchering trying to install master cylinders and servos
Edit just looked and realised I'm talking curse word re the citroens brakes! Never realised they were off the same system.. Its so much simpler. Ah well! Bx pump it is. Cheers!
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Last Edit: Sept 11, 2019 20:51:27 GMT by grahamk
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Sept 11, 2019 21:27:50 GMT
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I'm looking forward to this.
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Last Edit: Sept 11, 2019 21:29:58 GMT by kevins
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Rolls Royce diesel conversion.ChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Sept 11, 2019 22:19:29 GMT
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Keep an eye on ebay, as you sometimes see Silver Shadows needing repair for under £2000. Also seeing as you're not wanting the engine, you can get some money back for that. Another thing you could do, is see if any of the RR/Bentley breakers have anything without the power plant for sale. And they'll ruin you  . The brakes are more complicated than most of us can imagine (think Citroen Hydraulic brakes combined with normal brakes; the suspension I understand is a similar deal, possibly similar to Mercedes' SLS system, which is hated by many; again a combination system Mercedes employed). Harry Metcalfe's had been done wrong by someone who put new lines and calipers in but did the plumbing very wrong; even experienced guys I know fear them. I know they can only take DOT 3 for certain reasons (fluid composition I believe), and not DOT 4, which seems to cause issues, a little like LHM+ in some Citroens. Back on Harry's car, his also needed the carbs rebuild. The cost to do that + labour ? £4.5k, and most of that was just sorting the brakes out ; they were binding on one side due to incorrect plumbing from someone who fitted new lines, and new brake calipers (4 alone up front). A friend had a bill for £3k on his for the brakes on, yup, a £3k Roller. You'll either spend the money buying one (wisely that is), or spend the money and time fixing one up. No different to most other cars out there really. Balljoints for example are £250 for a pattern item! Before people say "you're being stupid and preaching nuns and kitttens" I've done it on other lower value cars and always wonder why I didn't spend more eventually. There are rule breakers of course . |
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Last Edit: Sept 11, 2019 22:23:15 GMT by ChasR
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Sept 11, 2019 23:01:44 GMT
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But the braking has got me completely stumped. Any point in removing the current brake system fitting a normal hydraulic system? |
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Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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Sept 12, 2019 9:43:37 GMT
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But the braking has got me completely stumped. Any point in removing the current brake system fitting a normal hydraulic system? I thought exactly the same, an off the shelf master cylinder, a couple of in line servos, possibly a bias valve and some plumbing using the original calipers (which re not too expensive but there are 4 on the front) is surely all it would take? I would look at van parts, if it slows a 4.7 ton Transit it should be fine for this. |
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Last Edit: Sept 12, 2019 9:47:53 GMT by kevins
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Sept 12, 2019 19:46:54 GMT
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Transit rear axle and Granada front bed should see it mobile and braked enough....
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richrolls
Part of things
Posts: 318
Club RR Member Number: 38
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Sept 12, 2019 20:32:12 GMT
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Regards the original diesel engine idea, i'd look at the Pacar/cummins in the slightly later dafs. Binky lads, bad obsession are putting one into their Cargo, have a google. I "think" they will remove all the ECU gubins from the donor wagon to run it.
Brakes. I'm putting mine over to a "normal" system. It'll run twin servos somewhere and a dual master cylinder under the floor where the original valves lived. Remote reservoirs feeding.
As mention above, anything with a Rolls Royce/Bentley name on it is refreshingly expensive even second hand. It is more than half the reasons I have modded the life out of mine suspension and brake wise...Ohh, and it was rotten.
The Matt black diesel Turbo R above lives around Harrogate. Built by a very good old school motor engineer that I know of, not know personally. We have in Fartbook parlance mutual friends. He is still operating a great workshop in the town.
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Sept 12, 2019 20:45:12 GMT
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Just a thought, most of the larger modern SUVs weigh about the same as a Roller. Have a look at what they're running.
What does the P38 Range Rover run, BMW?
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1953 Minor (Long term project)
PT Cruiser
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Sept 12, 2019 21:22:46 GMT
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There was a Roller at VW Action Weekend with a Beetle engine the boot. Wasn't exact what you would say ready for the road but it drove
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Rolls Royce diesel conversion.ChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Sept 12, 2019 22:29:51 GMT
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Any point in removing the current brake system fitting a normal hydraulic system? I thought exactly the same, an off the shelf master cylinder, a couple of in line servos, possibly a bias valve and some plumbing using the original calipers (which re not too expensive but there are 4 on the front) is surely all it would take? I would look at van parts, if it slows a 4.7 ton Transit it should be fine for this. It depends on what fluid the stock pistons take . DOT 3 may be fine but if they use LHM as well (I doubt it) things will get tricky. You'll also need a very funky master cylinder. With that many calipers and that many large pistons, the pedal will go to the floor with most off-the-shelf master cylinders ; I suspect the piston area of the master cylinder will be too small, and the rears will I suspect require something a little more conventional master cylinder piston wise. Banger racers may get away with it as they're not travelling especially quickly around the circuits . |
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Sept 13, 2019 8:51:46 GMT
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I guess the first question would be why do you need so many calipers , I suspect they have done it to get 2 fully independent brake systems 2 on the rear can't be for braking effort as under heavy braking they will be tyre friction limited. Many modern much heavier cars seem to manage with only one per wheel, I am sure I read somewhere the twin calipers are not as great as they sound anyway because the disc has twice the heat input and very little exposed area to cool it so overheats.
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Sept 14, 2019 6:30:27 GMT
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Cheers for the replies guys! This is purely an idea at the moment.. Have been pondering it over the past few days. I originally wanted to do away with the weird over complex braking system. The suspension setup on a w210 merc estate (which I have as a potential donor for the engine) has SLS rear suspension using the same setup..hydraulic accumulators but for the brakes the whole mechanism etc would be an absolute nightmare to change, so with that in mind my plan is as follows.. Engine: OM606 mercedes with a 7.5mm injection pump and holset HX35 should see it in the region of 350-400 hp (double the standard power) Trans: Either mercedes 722.6 with modified prop to standard rear diff or keep the existing transmission as its good for v12 jags/chevy v8s and use an adapter kit to the OM606 (DPUK sell one but its around 800 quid) this would allow me to retain the column shift. Now the main part...Hydraulics (see diagram) For pure simplicity of conversion, rather than butchering every system in the car, plus i'd like to retain the wafty ride.. The only issue I have is that I would be taking the existing system which has double redundancy (being effectively 2 systems) and reducing it to one. I would take a serpentine driven HP pump from a citroen bx, common up the two low pressure side of the system from the reservoir so there is one inlet to the HP pump, the same would be done on the outlet (HP side) of the pump, one line out, tee off to the two existing accumulators which should in theory run the system just without the double cam driven pump setup. The fact the two accumulators are retained means there should be some degree of redundancy in case of failure . I was under the impression the 2 sets of calipers were just to provide redundancy in case of failure of one side of the system. The hydraualic system uses a special type of fluid (same as citroen I believe) Weight of the car is 1850kg or so...nearly a ton less than my discovery 3 and probably the weight of an average modern saloon. Feel free to pick this apart and expose any problems you think may arise!  |
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Last Edit: Sept 14, 2019 6:32:18 GMT by grahamk
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Sept 17, 2019 23:19:43 GMT
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The 606 + turbo and keeping the column shift sounds the way to go to me. As for the brakes & suspension, I haven't a clue but they always seem the weak link for owner's of older Rollers from what I recall. If it was me (I don't have your skills) I'd want an all new conventional braking system and new air suspension.
Rock on and keep up the good work.
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Last Edit: Sept 18, 2019 16:27:26 GMT by Woofwoof
Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Sept 18, 2019 8:14:51 GMT
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Why not run one or two electric HP pumps? Removes the added complication of engine mountings, idler pullies and belts.
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Rolls Royce diesel conversion.Phil H
@philhoward
Club Retro Rides Member 133
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Sept 18, 2019 9:29:50 GMT
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There's mention of a specific RR fluid (not sure if it applies to this version) which I think is Mineral and LHM-like,but moreso the early red stuff IIRC?
Thee's also the CHF stuff used on some 1990's kit - again, I'm not an expert on fluid types although know mineral and synthetic don't like to be mixed..
Going back to one idea of the 6.5 GM (Detroit Diesel) V8 - if you want dimensions of one I can measure up as there's one in my RV. It's not without its own problems though - mainly relating to self-destructing crankshaft dampers (and snapped cranks IIRC) and overheating electronics in the pump (actually in the PMD driver module which you can re-site out of the valley of the engine).
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Carsie
Part of things
Posts: 127
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Grahamk,I'm following with interest.
I too have a Shadow 1980 S2 and the brakes and suspension just seem to be ridiculously over-engineered (he says having no formal engineering qualifications...)
I'm interested in the maintenance and longevity of the braking system without resorting to a major rebuild through hygroscopic fluid.
Your logic seems right to me- separate the functionality of systems i.e ride and braking.
As the system was Citroen licensed anyway using the BX pump and doing away with engine driven could make sense but if the hydraulic cams are working fine, why interfere?; split the systems out and engineer a solution for the brakes.
Woofwoof and RichRolls are on the money I think. If a modern Range Rover weighs more than a Shadow then it's braking system should be more than capable of managing a Shadow.
I know it can be done- if you put together the CAD and the specs I'll buy the solution from you.
Best.
Carsie
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Last Edit: Feb 2, 2020 22:50:48 GMT by Carsie
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just about any Transit sized van is capable of braking around 3.5 T and parts are dirt cheap, I would start here for a simplified brake conversion.
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