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Jan 18, 2013 15:38:44 GMT
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Right, this is going to be long winded....sorry in advance. I took 'the shed' Sierra (1.8 CVH 1990) in for its Mot on Wednesday they have listed 20 issues and 15 failure points...none of them huge or expensive but some i feel are unjustified. many of them illl solve quickly and cheaply but ill list the ones i am confused or unhappy with; here goes... 001 nearside front position lamp not working  i don't know how as it clearly does. 005 offside outer (track rod end) steering locking device missing ive never had the tracking arms or track rods off, do split pins run away or turn to dust randomly? 007 nearside front (ball joint) locking device missing its sercured with a lock nut as ive replaced the TCA's and they came with lock nuts, how do you put a split pin where its not meant to be? 008/009 Nearside/offside outer sill inadequate repair, seriously affecting strength within 30 cm of the body mountings  during last year i replaced both outer sills, repaired inner and intermaite sills in the process...they tell me the new sills failed because despite being seem welded on 3 sides i plug welded/spot welded the drip rail (everyone/2" over double the amont used when the car was built) this apprently should be seem welded unless i use a proper spot welder? 010 exhaust carbon monoxide content excessive. Help!! its running as lean as i can make it without stalling. my only other idea is to bin the cherry bomb, in favour of a standard item would that help? the readings are; CO level = 6.74% - fail--------Max 3.50 HC level = 463ppm - pass ----Max 1200 Any help/ ideas or opinions would be great  , the garage in question i wont name as its unfair  . but its a place that the whole family have used for a number years but in the last couple of years thier service, professionalism has proved somewhat dissapointing. I'm not saying that based on this MOT failure but on other issues the family have had. |
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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Jan 18, 2013 15:53:48 GMT
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001 nearside front position lamp not working I don't know how as it clearly does. I would suspect a loose connection there as it obviously wasn't working at the time of test 005 offside outer (track rod end) steering locking device missing ive never had the tracking arms or track rods off, do split pins run away or turn to dust randomly? Put a split pin in 007 nearside front (ball joint) locking device missing its sercured with a lock nut as ive replaced the TCA's and they came with lock nuts, how do you put a split pin where its not meant to be? I presume they came with Nyloc nuts these should be sufficient but is it obviously a locking nut? 008/009 Nearside/offside outer sill inadequate repair, seriously affecting strength within 30 cm of the body mountings during last year I replaced both outer sills, repaired inner and intermaite sills in the process...they tell me the new sills failed because despite being seem welded on 3 sides I plug welded/spot welded the drip rail (everyone/2" over double the amont used when the car was built) this apprently should be seem welded unless I use a proper spot welder? A sierra is of monocoque construction so does not have body mountings his fail therefore is wrong. However the book does say that all repairs in prescribed areas must be seam welded all round or words to that effect. Also plug welding is considered equivalent to spot welding. 010 exhaust carbon monoxide content excessive. Help!! its running as lean as I can make it without stalling. my only other idea is to bin the cherry bomb, in favour of a standard item would that help? the readings are; CO level = 6.74% - fail--------Max 3.50 HC level = 463ppm - pass ----Max 1200 a filter change and an italian tune up may help here but I think a full service and tune is required Any help/ ideas or opinions would be great , the garage in question I wont name as its unfair . but its a place that the whole family have used for a number years but in the last couple of years thier service, professionalism has proved somewhat dissapointing. I'm not saying that based on this MOT failure but on other issues the family have had. If your still unhappy take it to another testing station |
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Last Edit: Jan 18, 2013 15:59:18 GMT by bl1300
Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44
1974 VW Beetle 1303s
1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV
1988 VW LT45 Beavertail
1998 Volvo V70 2.5
1959 Fordson Dexta
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Jan 18, 2013 15:57:26 GMT
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Right, this is going to be long winded....sorry in advance. I took 'the shed' Sierra (1.8 CVH 1990) in for its Mot on Wednesday they have listed 20 issues and 15 failure points...none of them huge or expensive but some I feel are unjustified. many of them illl solve quickly and cheaply but ill list the ones I am confused or unhappy with; here goes... 001 nearside front position lamp not working I don't know how as it clearly does. 005 offside outer (track rod end) steering locking device missing ive never had the tracking arms or track rods off, do split pins run away or turn to dust randomly? 007 nearside front (ball joint) locking device missing its sercured with a lock nut as ive replaced the TCA's and they came with lock nuts, how do you put a split pin where its not meant to be? 008/009 Nearside/offside outer sill inadequate repair, seriously affecting strength within 30 cm of the body mountings during last year I replaced both outer sills, repaired inner and intermaite sills in the process...they tell me the new sills failed because despite being seem welded on 3 sides I plug welded/spot welded the drip rail (everyone/2" over double the amont used when the car was built) this apprently should be seem welded unless I use a proper spot welder? 010 exhaust carbon monoxide content excessive. Help!! its running as lean as I can make it without stalling. my only other idea is to bin the cherry bomb, in favour of a standard item would that help? the readings are; CO level = 6.74% - fail--------Max 3.50 HC level = 463ppm - pass ----Max 1200 Any help/ ideas or opinions would be great , the garage in question I wont name as its unfair . but its a place that the whole family have used for a number years but in the last couple of years thier service, professionalism has proved somewhat dissapointing. I'm not saying that based on this MOT failure but on other issues the family have had. so fix the problems and take it back, point out the error of their ways, and that spot welding is a type, not a machine, if they don't move on it, appeal to Vosa, actually show a picture of the welding, I can't see that being an issue if done competently, your Co is way high, service it and re adjust! |
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Jan 18, 2013 15:58:36 GMT
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yeah, I'm going to replace the split pins on the track rods. my biggest problems were will the sills and failing a nylocs? as if they work by that theroy arent most modern cars in trouble?
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Jan 18, 2013 16:00:47 GMT
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A sierra is of monocoque construction so does not have body mountings his fail therefore is wrong. However the book does say that all repairs in prescribed areas must be seam welded all round or words to that effect. Also plug welding is considered equivalent to spot welding. Oh yes it does, it has suspension mounted to the body! |
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Jan 18, 2013 16:01:58 GMT
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yeah, I'm going to replace the split pins on the track rods. my biggest problems were will the sills and failing a nylocs? as if they work by that theroy arent most modern cars in trouble? they have incorrectly assumed that as one is missing and they can't see the other, that it is also missing! |
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Jan 18, 2013 16:04:43 GMT
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ill post some pictures once its in my garage and i'm about to repair it, its hiding in 6" of snow at the minute, sunday ill start the repairs. 3 people, two migs, one kettle, lots of water, tea bags, milk and bacon....it can only go well.
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Jan 18, 2013 16:08:33 GMT
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its been a couple of months since i replaced the TCA's which would have been the last time i looked closely at the state of things there as it hasn't realy done any miles and ive been broken.
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jan 18, 2013 16:10:27 GMT
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Sill repair doesn't seem to need seam welding, although a lot of testers seem to have it in their heads that it does, according to paragraph 4 of section 10 of this: www.motuk.co.uk/mot_appendix_c.htm It's fine to plug weld where it was originally plug welded. The continuous seam welding's only needed on "Patch Repairs" It's stated pretty clearly, so assuming this is a decent source of info, it's them that's in the wrong there: "spot welded joints are acceptable where the original panel has been replaced to an existing spot welded flange (provided the original defective panel flange has been removed). Stitch or plug welding is acceptable as an alternative to spot welding in these cases." |
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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Jan 18, 2013 16:24:40 GMT
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A sierra is of monocoque construction so does not have body mountings his fail therefore is wrong. However the book does say that all repairs in prescribed areas must be seam welded all round or words to that effect. Also plug welding is considered equivalent to spot welding. Oh yes it does, it has suspension mounted to the body! Those are suspension mountings not body mountings! They have a different RFR even though it reads pretty much the same. Body mounts are where the body is mounted to the chassis. With a monocoque the body is the chassis so there are no body mounts. |
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Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44
1974 VW Beetle 1303s
1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV
1988 VW LT45 Beavertail
1998 Volvo V70 2.5
1959 Fordson Dexta
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jan 18, 2013 16:26:48 GMT
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Could they mean where the body mounts to a subframe?
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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Jan 18, 2013 16:35:51 GMT
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possibly but they have used the wrong RFR, its irrelavent really anyway as by their thinking then its within the prescribed areas for others anyway and thus would still fail. I have argued this with VOSA and I won. I had a fail one year on corrosion around a body mount on my DAF, as it was a monocoque I argued this and had it overturned. It wasn't within a prescribed area to far from, suspension, subframe or seat belt mounting.
re the sill if you have replaced the whole sill panel as one part then yes you can replicate the factory methods, if you have repaired then it must be seam welded all around.
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Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44
1974 VW Beetle 1303s
1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV
1988 VW LT45 Beavertail
1998 Volvo V70 2.5
1959 Fordson Dexta
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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Jan 18, 2013 16:42:51 GMT
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from memory the full sill panel extends up the middle door pillar so any cover sill can re classed as a repair and needs fully welding
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Jan 18, 2013 18:28:26 GMT
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I often get cars in to fix that have been badly failed by local MOT stations.
A lot of them do have a problem but they've used the wrong Fail from the list (as above with bodymountings that the car doesn't have) its amazing how often this happens.
Sometimes though they have been failed on something just because they felt like it.
Best advice is find a different MOT station that will actually perform a fair MOT to the rules as written, and not just what they think they are. Yes it will cost you the MOT fee again but it might be the better option in the long run
Before taking it back put any split pins in that are missing, if they have locknuts with the plastic in they do not need split pins, only for castle nut types.
For the emissions i would pop a new air filter and a set of plugs (assuming they haven't been changed recently. Then give it a good run using high revs to help clear its throat.
If it still fails then it will need some adjustment of the fueling etc
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Jan 18, 2013 18:48:01 GMT
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Has the examiner changed? I took all my cars and mates/ neighbours to the same place for years, old guy, one eye, but really honest. He would never chat, but never give any bull. I took my Landy in for the mot and left it with them. When I collected it, the list was so long it came on 2 separate sheets! Turned out they had a new young tester -Some, well most of the fails where crazy, things like 'no wipers due to lack of switch, chassis made of so many plates can't check chassis condition ( huh?) sharp edges (it's a land rover) black and silver plates (it's 1961) and a danger to use as battery was about to fall out from the seat box (a tractor battery secured into its tray under the bonnet) etc. I took it away, adjusted the brakes and wheel bearings and it then passed at another garage. I took 20 plus cars for mots so they lost out
I now use 2 garages for our cars and swap and change between the 2
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tubbs
Part of things
Posts: 59
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Jan 18, 2013 18:58:37 GMT
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I'm with the general consensus. Put the split pin in and take it elsewhere !
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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Jan 18, 2013 19:18:18 GMT
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It's been a while since I've tested let alone welded a sierra sill but the cover sill that used to be used to repair them wasn't a full panel so technically should be fully welded but the usual practice was to weld the top and ends then plug weld the bottom rail . The front of the panel used to get trimmed down as you would have to get the bottom of the wing off to replace it .
If that's the case with yours then I think a different more experienced tester might be the answer . On the plus side you didn't get any fresh holes to deal with .
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Jan 18, 2013 19:40:12 GMT
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tis true, i'm going to get it up in the air and see how things are....ill admit I haven't been able to look at it recently having a sling holding a ruined arm dosen't help. based on whats been said I will look at poping a seem on the drip rail, but where is the best place for it? i'm going to throw some oil, plugs and a filter into the mixture too probably bin the cherrybomb and throw the standard back box on for a couple of days. then an italian tune up and cross fingers time.
Datsundrew; the tester has changed they have three testers two of which I got on well with, and another who I done really like. one of the better two has left and has been replaced by a younger bloke from a national chain of expensive (creative even) garages. he dosen't seem to like to like older cars, that said in future I will be taking it somewhere else.
froggy; the cover sill panel you described is the one, i cut the old sill out leaving about 3/4" past the join at the bottom of the wing seam welded all round after tacking it in place and then plug welded along the bottom rail allowing space for the drain holes.
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Last Edit: Jan 18, 2013 19:44:21 GMT by curly89
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Jan 18, 2013 20:05:49 GMT
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M.OT.ers discetion at the end of the day. You say potato I say potata
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Jan 18, 2013 20:46:26 GMT
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It's true that if a tester doesn't like old stuff (scared of it?) it doesn't help! Paul, the tester in one garage I use openly admits he doesn't like old cars, but as he said to me last year, if it it looked after, it's far easier to test. I have been going there for 11 years now and is probably one of his most long standing returns! Each year it has remained the same or better and this year has a new chassis so not much to check there. As cars become more and more complicated I think he now finds it a welcome break from the norm.
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i don't know how as it clearly does.
during last year i replaced both outer sills, repaired inner and intermaite sills in the process...they tell me the new sills failed because despite being seem welded on 3 sides i plug welded/spot welded the drip rail (everyone/2" over double the amont used when the car was built) this apprently should be seem welded unless i use a proper spot welder? 
, the garage in question i wont name as its unfair 
. but its a place that the whole family have used for a number years but in the last couple of years thier service, professionalism has proved somewhat dissapointing. I'm not saying that based on this MOT failure but on other issues the family have had.
