|
|
Jul 31, 2012 19:37:00 GMT
|
OK, we have 12V on the + side of the coil, 6v on the -ve side of the coil (measured from the terminal to the engine block with a multimeter) with the key in the "run" position,
There is no spark at the king lead.
I have swapped the coil for a known good one of the same type.
Still no spark.
Thoughts?
|
|
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
|
|
|
bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
|
|
Jul 31, 2012 19:49:13 GMT
|
Whats the car?
Id be running the multimeter through the LT system looking for voltage loss from bad connections.
Also have you tried a known good king lead?
|
|
Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
|
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2012 20:06:02 GMT
|
Its an Oldsmobile, but its a basic coil & disty set up.
LT circuit is presenting 12V on the + terminal of the coil. Its showing 6V the other side and I was surprised by that. I was expecting either 12V or nothing there...
Fair point on the king lead. It does appear to have had a full set of new leads at some point
|
|
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
|
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2012 20:39:38 GMT
|
Points, I take it? If so, they need cleaning - I too would expect 12V (points open) or 0v (points closed). Up to a volt or so with the points closed is probably acceptable.
|
|
|
|
Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
|
Power to coil but no sparkDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
|
Jul 31, 2012 20:47:11 GMT
|
id got for points, and more more importantly condensor. 99% of ignition problems i get asked to solve after people have got fed up swapping coils/leads/plugs.caps/rotors and then given up are a simple diff condensor or dirty points.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2012 20:58:21 GMT
|
We thought (and we obviously don't know a lot about electrickery) that yanking the king lead and shorting it would show a spark if there was energy in the coil OK but before it gets to the distributor thus removing points and condensor from the equation. Or do we suck big hairy balls with that reasoning?
|
|
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
|
|
bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
|
|
Jul 31, 2012 21:09:52 GMT
|
You need the lt circuit to trigger a spark from the coil. The spark is induced in the HT circuit by the collapsing magnetic field caused by the breaking of the LT circuit. So if your LT circuit is not working then neither will your HT circuit.
My money is on points. Condensors usually give some warning before giving up although not always, the problem would also be exacerbated by having a warm engine. Most ignition faults are LT related lead, plug and coil failure are far less common than people think. In fact I have a couple of "broken" coils I bought from the AA last year that are in working order.
The things that getting me is why is it registering 6v. On a 12v circuit a 6v reading indicates that there is a lot of voltage being lost somewhere and 6v is not enough to energise a 12v coil.
|
|
Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
|
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2012 22:09:42 GMT
|
Yup. Energy is stored as a magnetic field in the coil by the current that flows when the points are closed. When the points open, the current stops flowing, and that energy is released. Some of the energy heads towards the points, and causes a small spark there, while the rest heads towards the plugs and causes the big spark there.
When the points have only just opened the gap is very small, so the spark jumps easily. The condenser absorbs some of the initial energy from the coil, giving the points time to open further. This reduces the size of the spark at the points, which a) frees up more energy for the plugs and b) stops the points eroding as quickly.
A quick test of the LT circuit is to turn the engine so the points are closed, switch on the ignition, and flick the points open quickly with a(n insulated) screwdriver. You should see a spark at the points. It should be small and yellow. If it's big and blue, the condenser is at fault. If there's no spark there at all, there's no energy being stored in the coil - this is caused by no (or little) current flowing in the LT side - or no interruption in the current flow.
The normal cause no current flowing is corroded points (especially if the car's been stood for a while - the points often sit open with the engine off, leaving the surfaces free to oxidise). However, it could also be (in order): the feed to the coil (already confirmed good); the wire between the coil and the dizzy; the wire to the points moving contact; or the earth from the baseplate to the dizzy body. Measuring the voltage at various places with the ignition on and the points closed (as you've done already, but keep moving down the chain until you suddenly see zero volts).
No interruption in the current flow is cause by a short between the moving contact and the dizzy body - could be the flying lead from the points, or a bit of swarf across the points. However, as you've got volts between the coil and the dizzy, I don't think that is the fault here.
|
|
|
|
stefan
Posted a lot
If it isn't broken fix it till it is
Posts: 1,598
|
|
Jul 31, 2012 23:02:40 GMT
|
Unbelivable how have you managed the brake another one
|
|
POWER IS EVERYTHING WITHOUT CONTROL
1985 Honda jazz 1997 Saab 93 convertible 2010 transit 280
|
|
|
|
|
No, it was broken already.
Its been sat since 2001 so corroded points and so on are all entirely likely.
|
|
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
|
|
|
stefan
Posted a lot
If it isn't broken fix it till it is
Posts: 1,598
|
|
|
which olds is it
|
|
POWER IS EVERYTHING WITHOUT CONTROL
1985 Honda jazz 1997 Saab 93 convertible 2010 transit 280
|
|
|
|
|
The red wreck, trying to get it running so it can be moved a bit. Seems like everything works so far except for it not starting. Once it runs I can check the trans and the brakes properly (although they seem OK on testing so far)
|
|
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
|
|
|
|
|
Yup. Energy is stored as a magnetic field in the coil by the current that flows when the points are closed. When the points open, the current stops flowing, and that energy is released. Some of the energy heads towards the points, and causes a small spark there, while the rest heads towards the plugs and causes the big spark there. When the points have only just opened the gap is very small, so the spark jumps easily. The condenser absorbs some of the initial energy from the coil, giving the points time to open further. This reduces the size of the spark at the points, which a) frees up more energy for the plugs and b) stops the points eroding as quickly. A quick test of the LT circuit is to turn the engine so the points are closed, switch on the ignition, and flick the points open quickly with a(n insulated) screwdriver. You should see a spark at the points. It should be small and yellow. If it's big and blue, the condenser is at fault. If there's no spark there at all, there's no energy being stored in the coil - this is caused by no (or little) current flowing in the LT side - or no interruption in the current flow. The normal cause no current flowing is corroded points (especially if the car's been stood for a while - the points often sit open with the engine off, leaving the surfaces free to oxidise). However, it could also be (in order): the feed to the coil (already confirmed good); the wire between the coil and the dizzy; the wire to the points moving contact; or the earth from the baseplate to the dizzy body. Measuring the voltage at various places with the ignition on and the points closed (as you've done already, but keep moving down the chain until you suddenly see zero volts). No interruption in the current flow is cause by a short between the moving contact and the dizzy body - could be the flying lead from the points, or a bit of swarf across the points. However, as you've got volts between the coil and the dizzy, I don't think that is the fault here. You sure? the LT circuit is merely a switch working at 12v, that gives the spark at the points, and 12v at the coil, but only at the time determined by the distributor, which is movable to adjust the time, the coil input from the points is fed to a small coil, which is close to but not connected to a larger coil with many more windings, so acting as a step up transformer, the induction voltage in this large coil then fires the plugs. so with ignition on, without the switching of the points, nothing will happen!
|
|
Last Edit: Aug 1, 2012 8:24:26 GMT by ianboyd
|
|
bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
|
|
|
^unless the points are corroded allowing only a minimal current to flow when closed which is not enough to sufficiently charge the coil.
|
|
Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
|
|
|
|
|
You sure? the LT circuit is merely a switch working at 12v, that gives the spark at the points, and 12v at the coil, but only at the time determined by the distributor, which is movable to adjust the time, the coil input from the points is fed to a small coil, which is close to but not connected to a larger coil with many more windings, so acting as a step up transformer, the induction voltage in this large coil then fires the plugs. What, about the storage of energy in the coil? Yes, I am. I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but that was covered in the first year of my degree. The transformer ratio of an ignition coil is typically 100:1, which would give 1200V at the plugs were the LT side merely switched 12V - nowhere near enough. Instead, the inductance of the primary side is used to cause a large voltage spike in the LT side - this has been measured to be up to 400 Volts - which causes that spark at the points. This is due to both Faraday's and Lenz's law - an inductance will oppose any change in the current flowing through it, so reducing the current rapdly to zero (as caused by opening the points) causes a large voltage which 'attempts' to maintain that current. The voltage spike of 400v caused by the inductor is then stepped up by 100:1, giving something like 40,000 volts. Much more like it. Of course, the faster you can stop the current flowing, the bigger the induced voltage and the bigger the spark - which is why electronic ignition tends to give a bigger spark. www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.htmlso with ignition on, without the switching of the points, nothing will happen! Don't think I said otherwise anywhere in my post? If I did please point out where. Opening the points manually with a screwdriver has the same effect as them being opened automatically by the dizzy.
|
|
|
|
bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
|
|
|
^ what was your degree in out of interest, I'm presuming from what you put it would be electrical science? As on my course Beng Automotive Engineering we didn't cover Faraday in any depth until midway through second year. In first year we had the typical explanation of "it does this you don't need to know why only that it does" then they explained it properly in second year.
What you've put is 100% as I remember the electrical science lecturer explaining it as so please don't think I'm trying to say your wrong as your not.
This is as you said one of the reasons why magnetic or Hall effect ignition gives a stronger spark. As a condensor is unessesary the current can drop quicker giving a higher voltage spike and a stronger spark. But if you tried running points ignition without a condensor to slow down this drop in voltage your points would rapidly burn out.
|
|
Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
|
|
|
|
|
Electrical and Electronic Engineering, yes.
Hall effect is magnetic, VR is also magnetic. However, by "Electronic" ignition I really meant "any ignition system with a transistor controlling the coil." The condenser does slow the rate of change of current - but the spark across the points does so more, so removing the condenser reduces the energy available at the spark plug. The advantage of a transistor is that it can simply switch faster. And of course it doesn't wear out.
|
|
|
|
bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
|
|
|
Yes and the condensor is there to suppress the spark across the points. So doing away with both and using an optical or magnetic pick up in their place along with a transistor gives a far better spark.
|
|
Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
|
|
|
|
|
Yes and the condensor is there to suppress the spark across the points. So doing away with both and using an optical or magnetic pick up in their place along with a transistor gives a far better spark. As I said, yes. ;D However, if the engine runs perfectly well with points you won't gain anything by switching - once a spark is good enough, it's good enough.
|
|
|
|
bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
|
|
|
Well I can say from personal experience that my triumph 1300 ran a lot lot better with a Simon BBC unit under the dizzy cap than it did with points and condenser.
|
|
Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
|
|
|