ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Oct 16, 2011 16:15:20 GMT
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looking good! We really should cruise around leam/warwick one evening for a bit and show the kids what proper cars look like This is too true my friend! We should also show them what proper cars sound like . FWIW I saw your car the other week at night time. Stunning was one of my thoughts about the car .
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Oct 30, 2011 18:36:33 GMT
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Now I am driving the car when I am not at work where possible, a few issues have become apparent (bar the poor MPG!). Firstly, the carbs on there were in a poor state of repair. A combination of an overflowing float (That was the other source of the petrol smell!), leaky gaskets and spindles, drinking dashpot oil along with bodged threads and linkages left me with a car that sort of sung on song, and with an idle that I could not control once warm. After considering refurbing them (if I could!) weighing up the cost of spares, machining or simply buying a recon set outright I took a bit of a hasty decision and decided to splash out on a Holley conversion after selling the Weber that I had for the 'B There is the 390cfm 4160 model: I guess part of the reason was that I do like them (probably not for the right reasons!) and hopefully they should give me less issues than the Strombergs. So off they came: Not quite so clear in the photo, but the body is chipped/cracked at the choke spindle along with fuel leakages present at the spindles. Why are people so careless?: There it is installed: And finally with the air filter and breather attached: If I am honest I think I prefer the look of the Strombergs on there... Suffice to say, it runs much better all round. Cold starting and driving is a much more pleasant and less fiddly affair (even after I adjusted the old items). It accelerates lovely (bar one aspect (read on)), and it no longer misfires going up the revs or feel flat, giving a much smoother drive. However, all is not great. Whilst I can now rev the car beyond 4k compared to before, it will not do so if I put my foot down hard or drive it up gently (it will try to stop increasing in revs and start to spit at almost second intervals from the exhaust). I am guessing this is either a timing issue (The ignition side I did check mind you before I splashed out of the carb) or the fuel pump. Being an SU pump I would expect it to pump like my MGB pump did (I.E a very rapid ticking sound when there is a demand for fuel or if no fuel is present). This seems to chuck out fuel in almost second intervals (albeit quite a bit). The pump itselfs looks fairly new. Before I go to taking it apart or trying my spare SU pump, I might see if the Stag items are diferent in operation to a normal SU pump. Otherwise, ideas?
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Last Edit: Oct 30, 2011 18:58:34 GMT by ChasR
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Oct 31, 2011 13:31:21 GMT
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I worked with a guy who owned his stag since 1981, he bought a holley conversion in the 90s, he said the inlet manifold used to fill up with unmixed fuel when driven hard, would definately cause the lack of rev's if youve got liquid fuel entering the cylinders, he said he never solved the problem after many afternoons jetting etc, in the end i think i refurbished the SU's and ran it for another 20years like that.
Really hope its not the same story for you, good luck!
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Oct 31, 2011 18:52:30 GMT
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I hope not either, as this carb is meant to be jetted for the Stag, but I guess a Rolling Road may be the only way to do so.
The only thing that throws me is that on the old carbs which were apparently running lean (lifting the piston slightly to check) it did the same thing. Even after trying to tune them it was not much better. I have kept all the old bits aside just in case.
A crying shame as it is running quite smoothly now too and much stronger too. It pulls a little more like I would expect a Stag to now bar that issue. Ah well, I guess I shall be best to stick at it.
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Last Edit: Nov 1, 2011 22:06:14 GMT by ChasR
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Scimitarse6b, did he say he had running issues with the Holley at all? You never know, it can always come in handy! Anyway, I have a further development on things! How things change when you decide to tidy an engine bay. In an attempt to cure the misfire I thought I would recheck a few things. First thing to do was to check the igntion timing. It was a degree or 2 out (I could never calm the idle down enough before) but this was soon reset. Advance mechanism was also given the all clear when it advanced as I expected it to when revved. Now for the replacement stages. Two items in question being the coil and the vacuum pipe for the old items I had. The new coil on there was a cheapo 12V Ballast coil (oil filled) made by County. The car came to me with a Bosch Super Red coil (not a cheap coil by any means), but it was a little manky and quite old. Maybe it suits the Newtronic ignition gubbins a little better. With the connectors cleaned and the coil degreased it was refitted. Another thing to change was the vacuum advance pipe. I bought the car with a bodged vacuum inlet on the carb and a closed vacuum pipe. From me fitting a new pipe the closed item was refitted. After this the dwell angle was checked. Being at 30 degrees all seemed well so off I went to drive it to town. Any change? Yes . The car is slightly less perky in town but fine. Above 3.5k it really sings now, pulling better than it has in the past . A near effortless waft in gathering pace compared to before. However, getting rid of this spitting/misfiring at 3.5k only allows you to realise moreso that the car still vibrates at 50+MPH as it really does not stuggle to get up to speed now. A shame as I really want to drive this car to more places now with its pace! Whilst I am getting closer to getting to the bottom of that misfiring issue (I shall reinstate the vacuum pipe once I get some good connecting elbows), the vibration persists. Still I guess I am getting somewhere with the issues.
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Last Edit: Nov 5, 2011 22:56:17 GMT by ChasR
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10mpg
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,253
Club RR Member Number: 204
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Nice car, I almost joined you in Stag ownership last week but my attention got diverted onto something a lot more sedate but a closer to my heart, superb looking cars though, and an exhaust note to die for..
I'd say 5.5v is far to little for your ignition, I would normally look for 7-9v from a ballasted system certainly the design specs for most of the cars I work on call for more than 6v afaik most ballasted coils are rated 9v continuous, despite the yanks swearing they are 6v...
Bear in mind a decent 12v battery in a full state of charge will put out significantly more than 12v by often up to a volt, the percentage drop you're seeing from a full fresh battery to 5.5 running voltage is quite significant.
When I was first training to be a mechanic, on mouldy old bangers one of the things my mentor drilled into me, was never suppose a running issue is defiantly either a fuel or ignition issue, just because it sounds like it, as untill you have proved either way what it is by actually assessing the problem scientifically, both can give exactly the same symptoms..
Have you got a spark intensity checker? or access to an ignition coil test rig? that's where I’d be going. The Holley 390's are not a lot of good in my experience, I’ve had two cars with them on, on I changed one over to an Edelbrock 500 and now i'm a firm Edelbrock devotee, that said I very much doubt it's causing any of your problems here.
Also I've found a lot of coils bought at motorfactors to be complete pap, i've put brand new coils on the test rig only to find they are only just scraping into the serviceable category, I always use coils from big name manufacturers now Bosch Mallory ect tbh most 'performance' coils seem to barely measure up to a decent 1970's high output Lucas one!!
Not hat I think it's especially pertinent to these problems, but I always like to give new cars to me a full compression and leak down test, so at least I know whet the internals are likely to be like before I start worrying about minutiae, might be worth a pop?
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Last Edit: Nov 6, 2011 23:02:46 GMT by 10mpg
The Internet, like all tools, if used improperly, can make a complete bo**cks of even the simplest jobs...
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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You should have done 10MPG , they are great cars when working right (I will get there). What did you go for in the end? (goes off to stalk posts!). Cheers muchly for the pointers anyway, they will certainly give me something to think about . That 5.5V figure was taken with some rather badly bodged wiring (read scotchlocks, 12V non ballast starter wire disconnected (it's a miracle the car started from cold when I first had it!) amongst other horrors). All have since been painstakingly rectified (why can't people fix things properly in the first place?). I shall recheck that figure though when I get the chance. I do not have a spark intensity checker but I may just add it to my list. Oddly enough, the coil came from a specialist supplier but I guess for pattern ignition bits it is always a gamble. I was going to get an Edelbrock 500 initially for the reasons you stated although many owners found them to be too big for the stock Stag engine and could never quite get them to run right. That left me with Strombergs (I shall have to see if I can fix mine from its bodged state), a Weber 38 DGMS or the Holley 390(or maybe something else could have been made to fit . With the new carb, no vacuum advance and Bosch coil it runs fine in town but great once you put your foot down and with one lovely exhaust note (and one thirsty car (having an LPG Mondeo does not help matters there!). Once I get some more connecting elbows for the dizzy (again, they were hacked about with due to the bodged vacuum take off on the old carbs by a PO) I am hoping that with the vacuum advance connected with the new elbows it will gain a little low end grunt back to make it spot on at low engine speeds, and not cause my 3.5krpm+ misfire under hard acceleration. I did used to be scared of doing compression tests in the past (I was quite silly like that (I since realised hope does not fix things!), but I do now do it on most cars I have before I start getting bits for them .
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,946
Club RR Member Number: 77
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nice looking Stag there and ive not seen a holley converted one before just out of interest, which plug are you checking the timing with? as i found out the buggers are timed on number 2 cylinder (1st one on the nearside bank)
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10mpg
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,253
Club RR Member Number: 204
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You should have done 10MPG , they are great cars when working right (I will get there). What did you go for in the end? (goes off to stalk posts!). Cheers muchly for the pointers anyway, they will certainly give me something to think about . Ah-ha! you wont find it on here, (though i have just bought a cheeky little car of here, to scratch my speed itch...) the car i'm referring to is a stately old lady that's I’ve always wanted, prefect for family days out and general wafting... All shall be revealed in an RR post if i get it, currently mid ebay dealings! as it's the other side of the country.. afaik edelbrock measure there cfm differently from Holley so you cannot compare them cfm like for like, either way the 500 eddy i had ran superbly almost straight out of the box on a stockish 3.5 Rover took all of 15 minutes to tune in and then it's fit and forget, lovely things.. the 390's i've had have been tricksy work of the horn-ed one in comparison, but overall still a vast step up from strombergs...
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The Internet, like all tools, if used improperly, can make a complete bo**cks of even the simplest jobs...
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Good to hear that your getting ontop of the running of the Stag ;D Have you changed the ignition for contactless? as this is a good upgrade to improve the running. What are the plug temperature stag web site say's N12YCC Champion. Not sure whether modern fuel will effect it as stag was designed in a time when we had 2*,4* and 5*, have you tried some of that super dooper fuel with high octane level, lot of people find thaey get better mpg with it.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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I am indeed! I admit they have some posing value to them but I really like to drive cars as well . It came with Newtronic Electronic Ignition, albeit a little old. Initially I was tempted to go back to points as I thought it was one of the items causing the misfire (As you can tell now, it was not . Plugs in here ATM are NGK BP5ESs, although the car came to me with BPR5ES-11s (a resistor Plug with far too big a gap for a Stag (1.1mm compared to the 0.7mm gap they should have, in addition to some rather nice and new, but innapropriate Champion 8mm Silicon HT leads (I say innapropriate as they were very untidy and generally too long hence rubbing in many places (I reckon they were for another engine), which I replaced with some stock 'green' HT leads. Tony Hart however and a few others have said they have sometimes found that cars can have odd misfires on the NGKs (either the E or the ES variety), and that the Champion N12YCCs are proven to work well. And yes, I do put in either V-Power or Super on stock timing in addition to some valve lubricant (running a couple of cars on LPG helps me get some rather cheaply ). A little too belt and braces I admit, but like I was saying I would rather be driving cars rather than fixing them! On the knackered Strombergs I was getting 20-22MPG.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Only a small update this time. The electrical issues were not quite over. Now and again the car would refuse to turn over when asked to. Eventually it refused to start point blank. The car came to me with a disconnected Tony Hart HRS Starter motor relay conversion which I reinstated when the electrics were sorted. I thought this may have been the issue. It checked out fine. It turned out to be the solenoid terminal on the starter motor being slightly broken (contact was wiggling about) and hence when the car moved the car would either start or wouldn't. After a short amount of time with some cleaning agents and solder it is starting on the button once again . As for those of you who have taken a peep in the Technical Bit I am still trying to get to the bottom of my rear vibrations. I may just take it to Vibration Free to get to the bottom of it, but when I get some time and good weather (I work outside) I shall see what's what (measuring diff/'box angles and seeing if I can split the driveshafts to see if all is well there). This is the next problem I need to solve really before I end up damaging something else. I did however have quite a draught in the car thanks to a leaky roof! It didn't help with cold mornings either (and dare I say rust!). After talking to a friendly Stag specialist near me a deal was agreed on a scruffy but salvageable hard top. It is quite cheap too for a hardtop . After a bit of fiddling etc. it is great being able to drive the car with some visibility (Mk2 hoods have horrible blindspots on them (part of this is to Mk2s coming with hardtops from the factory (hence Mk1 hoods have quarterlight windows), and more to the point not having one hideous draught on my neck and back! Or maybe I'm getting old. I shall be getting it painted white next year but here it is on the car. One more thing... It seems I get a few more MPG on the Holley than the Strommies on a run as I found over the past few days. The factor that can change it is how hard I put my foot down . But with normal driving I am pleased with the package. Now to work on getting it to drive fine about 50mph. We can all dream...
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Last Edit: Dec 3, 2011 11:18:15 GMT by ChasR
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luckygti
Posted a lot
I need to try harder!
Posts: 4,912
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Looking really good Chas, that roof will certainly make the difference now its getting colder!
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Awesome!! How did I miss this??
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have taken quite a shine to these stags. although id love to see a nice stanced out one... hmmmmmm
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ToolsnTrack
Posted a lot
Homebrew Raconteur
Posts: 4,117
Club RR Member Number: 134
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Coming along nicely, have always had a hankering for an old Stag. Would have to be BRG for me though. Still, lovely looking original car!
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Dec 12, 2011 23:05:27 GMT
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have taken quite a shine to these stags. although id love to see a nice stanced out one... hmmmmmm The front of mine has been lowered (but the springs I think are off a 2.5Pi (heavier on the front)) but lowering mine all round (rears seem to be on stock springs) may very well be in the pipeline . I was also thinking of going bumperless but whilst the front would look fine I am not sure if the rear would work:
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ben1
Part of things
Posts: 340
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Dec 26, 2011 17:52:18 GMT
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Looks very smart, i think i spotted this around the cannock area, maybe before you bought it or maybe it isn't the one
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sphinx
Part of things
Posts: 219
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Dec 26, 2011 19:25:29 GMT
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Very nice! Love those last few shots, if you could edit out all the modern cars it would look like pictures taken back in the day.
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Dec 26, 2011 20:09:42 GMT
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Your car, your way, of course, but I'm not sure that the bumperless look suits the Stag. They're an elegant cruiser, not a competition inspired bruiser. For the same reason, Minilite-style wheels just don't look right, whatever the diameter or stance.
Anything that underlines the 'smart' (almost junior VIP?) look works. Clear indicators clean up the nose, along with removal of the centre leaping stag badge (emphasising width) and i've always pondered deleting underriders for the same reason.
Yours is a great car, enjoy it!
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